Big mistake in the money spots.

all_aces · Mar 12,2004, 04:23 PM

Hey Dave/all.

Played a $30 multi NL tourney last night. 100 entrants, we're down to 7, top 10 pay. So, I'm already in the money, but the prizes increase almost exponentially from here on in.

And I think I blew it. What would you have done in this case?

I'm in the cut-off with AKo. I'm slightly shortstacked (though not desperate) with T13,000. Blinds are 800/1600. Folded to me, and I raise to 6500. Only SB (very big stack) calls.

What a stupid raise. 6500. Half my stack. Totally commits me to the other half, so why not just push all-in preflop? Anyways, I didn't, and I have a caller.

Flop JT3 rainbow. SB checks, I push, he calls.
Turn 6
River Ace.

SB shows ATo and I'm out of the tourney in 7th place.

How many mistakes did I make here? How would you have played this? I think I should have either commited all of my chips preflop, or commited much less preflop so I wouldn't feel like I had to push with ace high on the flop. After making the mistake of raising half my stack preflop, is there any way I can get away from the hand at that point? I would have been left with a desperate stack.

Dave Scharf · Mar 14,2004, 10:35 PM

Quote:

I'm in the cut-off with AKo. I'm slightly shortstacked (though not desperate) with T13,000. Blinds are 800/1600. Folded to me, and I raise to 6500. Only SB (very big stack) calls.

What a stupid raise. 6500. Half my stack. Totally commits me to the other half, so why not just push all-in preflop? Anyways, I didn't, and I have a caller.

I do not think that this is such a stupid raise.

There is a general rule that if your stack is 10 x the big-blind then you should raise all-in since if you are re-raised you will have to call. Note, however, that this reasoning is based upon the fact that you will have to call if you are re-raised. If you are not re-raised (as was the case here) then you have preserved some of your options.

I like my raises and bets to be "enough to get the job done." Raising to 6500 vs. raising to 13,000. Will the 13,000 make any difference in what the players behind me are willing to call with? Good question... without being in the tournament and having a good read on the players behind me I probably can't answer that. My instinct is that if the SB was willing to call 6500 with A-To then he is probably going to call the whole 13K since, as you say, he was a BIG stack.

Quote:

Flop JT3 rainbow. SB checks, I push, he calls.
Turn 6
River Ace.

SB shows ATo and I'm out of the tourney in 7th place.

Here you made a mistake. But... you didn't have any way of knowing that until you saw his cards.

What does he have? When he calls my pre-flop raise to 6500 I probably put him on a big ace or a pocket pair. If he has a big as then it's a coin toss -- he has AK, AQ, or AJ (I am not giving him AT). Why bet? You have position. Check and see what he does on the turn.

If he has a pocket pair then I either have 10 outs or 4 outs (if he hit a set). In either case I am now an underdog and I figure he will call. Check and see what the turn brings.

Long and short of it is that I will either (1) Jam pre-flop with A-K because that takes all of the decision making out of it; or (2) Make a smaller raise pre-flop becuase that allows me to make another decision post-flop. If I choose option (2) it's because I think I have a good handle on the players in the blind and that I will be able to make a better decisions post flop.

Quote:

After making the mistake of raising half my stack preflop, is there any way I can get away from the hand at that point? I would have been left with a desperate stack.

If you are beat... get away and save even a meagre stack.

all_aces · Mar 15,2004, 11:18 AM

Wow, great analysis. Very helpful for me, thanks. I wish I knew how to quote text in posts... I've tried to do it in some different ways and when I preview the post it never works out for me. If anyone can help me with this imbecilic request I'd appreciate it.

A results-oriented approach to this hand would indicate that, had I checked the flop, I probably would have had it in me to fold the turn to a bet. If we checked the turn as well, I would have had to push when the ace hit the river.

The big question I guess is, would I have gotten myself into this mess if I had pushed preflop? Who knows if he would call 13K with ATo. I think he had about 27K, so that put him at about 3rd of 7. As you say, my biggest mistake was my flop decision. I didn't use my position, and that's what it's there for.

Thanks again,
all_aces

ScottyZ · Mar 15,2004, 11:50 AM

Quote:

I wish I knew how to quote text in posts

The easiest way it to cut and past the text into your own post, and then surround it with:

square bracket quote square bracket
.
.
.
square bracket /quote square bracket

(don't use any spaces and substitute actual square brackets of course... note that I can't avoid typing it that way since typing the actual thing wil create a quote)

You could also try the Quote button at the top, but I find this button a little flakey.

If you want to quote an entire post in a reply, use the Quote button attached to the relevant post.

ScottyZ

djw · Mar 15,2004, 12:01 PM

Quote:

the text you want to quote.

ScottyZ · Mar 15,2004, 12:16 PM

[quote]
What he said.

[/quote]

all_aces · Mar 15,2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

The easiest way it to cut and past the text into your own post, and then surround it with

I think I got it now, thanks!

Dave Scharf · Mar 15,2004, 02:10 PM

I prefer to simply highlight it by "click hold and release" and then go to the top and click the "Quote" button.

rroarr · Mar 16,2004, 12:30 AM

I made the same mistake just a couple days ago in a $30. Bet half my stack pre-flop from late pos with KK. The SB with a bigger stack called. Flop came AJx. He checked, I went all in and he called. Of course he did have the ace, and the turn and river didn't help me.

I'm not much of a tourney player and usually stick to limit games, but once in a while I use my profits for tourneys. I wish I read this post before I played in the tourney. I hope I remember my lesson.