DrTyore

Hey there guys

I was going to send this to PNL, but I think this would be more discussion - encouraging. Anyways, here goes

We all know that people have differing "styles" of games, tight passive, tight aggressive yadda yadda, but I was reading in a recent issue of "Bluff" magazine, the contribution by Jennifer Tilly, where she was told by a professional player that when it comes to cash games, she's a "bleeder" (or was it hemmorager?). Regardless, it got me thinking, as I find I do much the same...

Example: Yesterday, playing some micro-limit NL games, and got up about 70+BB (.05/.10 CAP NL game, I was trying it). And by the time I'd ended, I was down about 10BB from my starting point. A few days back, I was playing and doubled my buy-in at .25/.50 NL game, from $50 to a max of about $115, but then I started bleeding out chips again, and I left the table at about $70.

My question is, is this a normal ebb and flow of a cash game, or are there some players that are bleeders, and some that are rolling stones (i.e. win some pots, and have more clout to win more and more). If so, what do you think is the cause for this? I'm sure much like tight vs. loose and such approaches to the game, there are probably pros and cons to both, or is this simply the symptoms of your game style?

Does anyone else find this? It seems to me that I should almost leave a table the second I 2x my buy-in, since I rarely increase past there for some reason.

Mark

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Life's usually simple, just not always easy

magithighs

I think this would be a great PNL question -- do send it in!Â* But, I'll give my 2c worth here.

First off, if you're in a game where you can go up 70bb in one session, you need to expect variance.Â* I think you know this.Â* As we all know, poker is a long term game, so advising someone to leave when they're up, isn't really good advice.Â* If you can go up 70bb, it's a good game.Â* The variance is more a function of the game, than one's style.Â* You may have seen this in action many times, where the tight guys experience lots of variance in the crazy loose games -- getting aces cracked and all.Â* So, if you want less variance, then you just need to choose different games -- games with smaller pots with weaker players.

Now to the bleeding question.Â* I haven't read the article, but experienced this myself many times.Â* In my view, bleeding isn't necessarily playing poorly.Â* It's just making poor decisions which leads you to loose pots/bets, when it's really not clear that your decision was poor.Â* For instance, sometimes you're biggest mistake is entering the pot in the first place, not the decisions afterwards.Â* Other times it's raising to get a free card, when the implied odds don't make chasing worthwhile.Â* In essence, they're small mistakes which cause you to bleed dough.

Bleeding isn't necessarily linked to not being able to keep the dough you win in a session.Â* However, if it does make you try extra stuff, like raising with 86s utg, when you've just lost two hands, then you're bleeding.Â* The raise isn't necessarily a mistake in NL, but doing it when no one is fearing you, is definitely a mistake.Â* Or, if you're throwing in a raise when a weak player bets into you on a paired board, because he's weak and likely to release, then you're bleeding.Â* Or, if you're on a draw andÂ* played it passively, miss on the river and then make a large bet to win because you can't win any other way, then you're bleeding.

Leaving when you're up 2x your buyin is bad.Â* You have a big stack and an image just because of your stack.Â* You can't really double it again as easisly because the buyin cap will hinder that process.Â* However, you can still make lots of money.Â* Just be carefull.Â* If you've busted all the bad players, then maybe better ones are taking their place and taking your dough.

That's all I have for now.

Cheers
Lou

beanie42

Great question, and Lou covered it really well. One of the biggest problems I have with bleeding is knowing when to leave the game. Not because I'm up (or down), but because the table complexion no longer makes it profitable for me. But winning/losing a lot in a session isn't necessarily bleeding - review your hands to see if you made any correctable mistakes, and after that, there's not much you can do.

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"So many losses with such a small bankroll against such weak opponents - it's like being beaten by a mob of toddlers" - Me (while learning ring games)

DrTyore

So I did a little experimenting / reading

I think my biggest problem is that I was killing the fish, and they weren't willingly throwing money back on the table (the nerve!)

So, I tried something this weekend. I would fleece the bad players, usually takes me about 15 minutes to see who is going to be my ATM at the table, and then about an hour to really nail them - if I"m lucky. Anyways, I was playing a 6-handed 1/2 Limit game, got up about 53 bucks to 103, and then re-evaulated the table - my ATM's had left, and now I was there with the other guys that were drooling over them....

So I left.

I think I'm going to institute a rule for myself that whenever it's my deal, I re-evaulate whether the table is still a good one. PIcking a table right off is usually fairly easy as you can check the hands / hour & avg pot size stats, but re-evaluating I think is going to be a new breakthrough for my game.

Mark

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Life's usually simple, just not always easy

Metro

I think you are going to see a ton of variance in .05/.10 NL game.

I could see how you could fluctuate 70xBB in just a few hands.

I would also imagine at this level that you, Mark, would remain one of the more skilled players at the table for a long session.

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In the poker game of life - women are the rake.

DrTyore

Obviously, but the .05/.10 is not my normal game (it was my "Gee, I've had 7 beers since I been home" game)

I was experiencing this in my 1/2 limit / .25/.50 NL games as well

And I like to think I"m one of the more skilled players at the table in most instances Tom!

Mark

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Life's usually simple, just not always easy

g2

That is what we all would like you to think Mark

/g2