st0neC0ldNutz

Ok, I have played enough to hear people say "don't bet a dry side pot", which to me makes sense somewhat in that the goal in a tourament is to eliminate players and if we can keep more hands in play we stand a better chance of eliminating that player.

However, what if something like this happens.

Blinds: 250/500

You have 20,000
Short stack has 5,000
Big stack has 90,000

You have K K utg and raise to 2,000

everyone folds to short stack who is in SB and he goes all in
then big stack in BB calls the 5,000
and you call the extra 3,000 wanting to see a flop and make sure no Ace comes out...

Flop is 2 9 10

BB checks to you....

do you check it down and not bet the dry side? or are you worried that BB might have the Ace and if you check down he might catch a and hit the nut flush?

You see, this is where I am confused, because I would be tempted to go all in with the rest of my stack to secure this pot, thus betting the dry side pot - which would make some people mad.

So I guess my question is: When is it Ok to bet a dry side pot? Or is it ever?

Thoughts please...thanks.

Hork42

Don't BLUFF into a dry side pot. Unless it is advantageous to do so. For you.

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SirWatts

I would push preflop and put in a big bet on the flop in your case. You don't bluff into a dry sidepot because you may not even be able to beat the all-in player so it gains you very little/nothing and you are risking chips for no reason. If you have a good hand you should bet like usual to protect it.

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WaterLooser

Anybody disagree with this statement as a whole? I guess that is a whole other thread of discussion.


Do you want to make sure this guy is eliminated by having the most people in the pot? If that were true, would you play this with any two cards? In this case you have a great hand and a raising hand. I would try to push for isolation. Better you having the chips than the big-stack.

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SirWatts

I pretty much do. The goal in a tournament is to get all the chips. Eliminating one more player is rarely a big deal except in bubble and FT situations and even then you should be most concerned about trying to get his chips for yourself if you have the best hand. Just worry about your own stack, the eliminations will take care of themselves as the blinds increase. Letting people draw out on you for free in a big pot when you have the best hand is not a good way to go about getting all the chips. Make the BB pay if he wants to be in the hand. You have a huge advantage preflop and on the flop.

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Hork42

There are times when eliminating a player is not advantageous to you. Ie, you are dominating a table, and have a good suspicion that if someone busts at your table, it will be broken and you will be moved to another table. For this reason you may want a small stack to survive a little longer... I believe I picked this up from Starsky's book.

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beanie42

I'm still not sold on just checking it down yet.Â* I hate seeing someone bet me out with 2 undercards to the board, thus tripling up Mr. All-in.Â* I won't try to steal in this situation, but I will bet if I think I have the all-in beat but a vulnerable hand to the third player, or if I think I'm best and can get more money.Â* I also wonder how dangerous not betting can be.Â* If you have been fairly aggressive, and you try to check it down, don't you open the door for the third player to bet you out of the pot?Â* As Hork said, you need to do what's best for you - poker is not a team-sport.Â* I can't remember where I read this, and this is probably a butchered quote, but:

If betting accomplishes that goal, than do it.

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ScottyZ

I would move all-in pre-flop for value.

You can certainly assume that you have a better hand then the BB. The remaining value component of this bet is: Will your opponent call you with a worse hand? Quite possibly. With 15,000 in the pot and facing a call of 15,000 more, your opponent may convince himself to call you with any two here.

The other edge to the double-edged sword of you moving all-in pre-flop, is that you also don't really mind your opponent folding. Going for the existing 15,000 in the pot for free against only one opponent is not too bad of a result either.

Honestly though, I'd prefer the BB to call. You'd be getting 1 to 1 money on the additional value re-raise while figuring to be a 70%+ favorite. This isn't the time in a tournament to prefer a low variance play in order to wait for a better spot. Pull out all of the Hollywood moves you need to earn that call here.

As the hand actually went, you have a very interesting decision on the flop. As has been mentioned already, the only clear aspect of the hand is that the "don't bluff at a dry side pot" rule is not in effect here.

Moving all-in is a good play, but not clearly so. It depends a lot on your (active) opponent's playing style.

If your opponent is the kind of player who would never fold the 2d in a million years if a 4th diamond hits the board, you might be better off slowplaying your simultaneous flush draw. If your opponent would call you with any (single) diamond on the flop, but not on the turn if still drawing, get that money in there on the flop with the opponent drawing nearly dead.

Against an unknown, unpredictable or highly skilled player, moving all-in is probably best. When in doubt as to your opponent's playing habits, tend to make the play (in a tournament) that protects your hand the best rather than trying to squeeze out every last value bet.

ScottyZ

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st0neC0ldNutz

Ok now you have confused me Scotty. Did you really mean to say all in PRE-flop? or did you mean POST-flop?
I really dont think moving in pre-flop with KK UTG is the best value play

Thanks for the comments so far. The reason I am bringing it up is that it seems to be the newest thing @ home games, local tourneys and online that I have seen people thrashing other players for betting a dry side pot - going as far as calling these people straight up donks...and really, I have never really agreed. I have felt that it is situational and sometimes I feel it is in your best interest to bet the dry side for sure.

And yes I get the point that you want all the chips in a tourney, but there seems to be an unwritten rule about betting a dry side in that you may drive out an opponent who (by the river) would have made the best hand and knocked out the short stack, but since you bet, and he decided to fold, it is your fault the short stack is still around...a lot of players I have met think this way and Im not sure if I like that thought or not. On the one hand you probably bet because you thought you had the best hand...on the other hand the short stack is still around and may be the opponent that kills you later in the tourney! Its a grey area that I am struggling with - for sure you wont see me bluff a dry side - but I feel I am not making confident decisions when in a dry side situation becasue really, I am not in them too much, and have never read much about it....ok i will stop rambling now.

ScottyZ

Sorry, this was unclear. I would have moved all-in pre-flop at the point where the SB had already made it $5,000 to go and the BB had called.

I would not have opened all-in.

ScottyZ

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You've been training for this moment your entire life. The universe has been conspiring, if you think about it, to put you right here, right now.<br /><br />Off you go. We're all waiting on you.<br /><br />-from &quot;The Unit&quot; (episode written by David Mamet)

CrazyJoe113

Betting a side pot when you have a hand is fine. I'm not a fan of people bluffing into a dry side pot as all you do is protect the all in player and you gain nothing if you can't beat the all in player.

st0neC0ldNutz

thank you. that is exactly what i wanted to hear.

Dave Scharf

Generally, you want to maximize your own EV in the pot.

Don't bluff at a dry pot because there is NO value in this bluff. You cannot with without the best hand because it's a dead pot. Bluffing is removed as a weapon. It is amazing how often one sees this error made. And, it is amazing how often one sees people chastising someone for betting the best hand into a dead pot. Well... it's a MUCH worse result for me to check my K-K and give your A (suited) a free draw to beat me.

I, too, would have made a pretty big re-raise pre-flop. And, I too would make a large bet at the pot the way that hand was played.

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st0neC0ldNutz

Yes, I see this all the time, live, and in particular online - the funny thing was at first I didn't understand the issue at all... when I began to think about it - I found people
doing this chastising had zero logic behind their comments - so thus my post, and now I feel a little more educated on the topic.

cheers all !

esool

Sounds like you are ready for this book.


Reviews here.
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASI...&link_code=as1