HellmuthFan

Hello everyone, I have been reading this forum for a long time now and I am a huge fan of Poker. I am 18 years old and have been playing for a couple of months now. Being too young I mostly play online or at home games with friends. Anyway, on to the question at hand...

I was just wondering how you play low to middle pocket pairs. I know a lot of players who become fascinated with the thought of starting with any pair in their hand to start with. For some reason they believe the hand is a lot better then it really is. For me, if I have any bet in front of me with a caller I'm mucking the low pair 9 times out of 10 depending on the player. Middle pairs are a little more intising and I may stick around to see a flop. However if I'm hold 8-8 or 9-9 and the flop comes up K-J-T the mere sight of any bet is going to throw my hand away.

Anyway, I was just wondering how you guys play these hands as it is the low to middle pocket pairs that have got me in the most trouble recently.

all_aces

HellmuthFan,

I don't mean to disrespect Phil Hellmuth, as you are clearly a fan of his. Having said that, I found that the only section of his book worth looking at was his discussion about low to medium pocket pairs. I don't have the book in front of me, but the gist of the section was this:

Hellmuth likes to raise with them. Say he has pocket 3's, and there's been a bet and a raise in front of him, in a limit game. Depending on who did the betting--and more importantly the raising--he will 3-bet the hand to try to get the initial bettor out of there.

His theory is that he picks up a lot of small-ish pots this way, and if he doesn't flop a set--which is usually the case--and his opponent loves the flop, it's an easy hand to get away from. If his opponent misses the flop, Phil will usually pick up the pot then and there with a bet.

He also gives a lot of credit to a player whose name I forget. The way this guy does it is to limp in with small pocket pairs if he can, hoping to flop a set. If he misses the set, he folds. If there's a preflop raise, he folds. Basically, this guy doesn't see pocket pairs as a way to buy a lot of small pots. He sees them as an opportunity to occasionally win some very big ones.

At the end of the day, I think that both of these strategies will win about the same amount of money. Hellmuth will win smaller pots, but more of them. He'll also lose the 3 bets he put in preflop if he's forced to fold, though. The other guy risks less, but wins fewer pots. The pots he does win will tend to be bigger.

A lot of this depends on the players you're against, the position you have, whether it's limit or no-limit, and whether the game is shorthanded (6 players or less) or a full table. In a shorthanded limit game, I'll play any pocket pair like they're aces unless I have a very good reason not to. In a full limit game, I like to mix it up as much as I can. And in any no-limit game, it really depends.

Regards,
all_aces

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HellmuthFan

Thanks for bringing that up all_aces. I have yet to read Phil's book so that is interesting to see what he does in that case. The thing with Phil's re-raise on low pairs is that if he gets called then unless he flops a set he basically is folding to any bet in front of him, especially with a lot of over cards on the board. Like you said tho, it really depends on the players. A tight player play not like the re-raise preflop and get out. And someone who doesn't hit the flop and checks in early position will surely fold to a strong bet here after the preflop raise.

Would you agree that you would only make this move in late position?

Tilter

For Limit play:
For low or middle pocket pairs you got to call them in the proper position and want to call them cheaply.

You'll most likely be playing low limit so there won't be much deception (bluffing) as most people can't be bet off top pair. So what happens if as soon as you see the flop, you know what you have.

You either flop a set (and play it fast), flop a draw (ie you have 55, and flop 346), hold an overpair to the board, or overcards hit.

Most of the time (At least 80%+ you will fold your low/mid level pocket pairs because you won't be getting value to call bets (like 22:1), so don't chase these to the river (only going to lose money in the long run).

Remember, with pocker pairs, you have a 20% chance to flop a set by then river, but more importantly you will flop a set 11.8% of the time.

For NL/PL play:
pocket pairs are amazing in this game, I will call a 22 UTG if I know the table is passive and will not raise, just because if I hit it, I have extraordinary implied odds and will get paid off a lot of the time.

Also, if I miss the flop on a mid pair and they bet weak (ie minimum), I will sometimes call because I know I can outplay him/her from the pot, or I will get paid off for sure if I make my set on the turn or the river, but most of the time if I miss the flop and their is heavy action, I get the hell out of there.

Hope this helps!

Jay

Hellmuth, what school do you go to? I might know you... PM me.

I limp in with pocket pairs that are 8's or lower, depending on how many people are already in the hand. If it is short handed, I might raise with 7's or 8's to get more information on my opponent(s).

HellmuthFan

Well I went to North Park...wut about you?

Dave Scharf

In a low-limit limit hold'em game I will not normally play pocket pairs below J-J against a raise. The rest go in the muck. The exceptions would be if there was a big multi-way pot (a raise and three callers to me) or I am the big-blind.

I do not believe that Hellmuth's 3-bet advice is valid in any game up to 10-20 that I have played anywhere in the world.

I am, of course, making some gross generalizations but the point is that in low-limit hold'em in which pots are frequently multi-way and players are generally very reluctant to fold you are very likely going to need a set to win and you better flop it or you will be paying too much.

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Jay

I went to St. John's College. Check the PM I sent you.