Buster

Just starting out, and had a question about a hand. I'm in the big blind, with Kh6d, and get to see the flop cheap with lots of limpers (no raising pre-flop). Flop hits 9d,6c,3c. Small blind checks, I bet, get three callers, then a raise. Button calls, small blind calls. Do I call to see another card with middle pair?

As is turns out, I folded, turn and river are 6h, Kc, which makes the button a K-high flush which I would have beat with my full house (and it was a mighty big pot (20 big bets worth). :banghead: Is this just the way things go, or did I make a mistake not calling the raise on the flop.

Thanks in advance

Hork42

You can't count on going runner-runner to make a full house. The result of this particular hand is irrelevant to the decision you have to make on the flop.

Assuming this is low limit holdem...

I'd take another card since there are many callers - if i counted correctly, you're getting 17:1 to call the one bet back to you. It's also likely the player raised to get a free card on the turn for his flush draw.

If the turn comes with another 6 or a K, I'll bet. If it's another club, I'll check with the intention of folding... it is likely that someone has made a flush.

If the Kc comes on the turn, at this point pot odds determine whether you continue. Since we have so many bets in there, you might have pot odds to continue drawing to the full house. Do the calculation and make the decision accordingly.

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pkrfce9

I never know if I should respond to posts in this forum. It is the 'Ask Dave' forum after all...

But I'll throw my two cents in with apologies to Dave.

You didn't mention the type of game you are playing: limit or no-limit. And the feel of the table: loose/tight passive/aggressive. I'm going to assume low limit, loose and somewhat aggressive.

I think you should have checked on the flop. If it comes back to you with 1 bet, it is likely proper to call with a middle pair. By leading on the flop with a marginal hand, you have left yourself with a tough decision when you are re-raised. You don't know what the other guy is representing now. It *could* be a bluff to get a free card on the turn. Or the guy could have 2pr or a set. A set is less likely unless he's a poor player since he normally could make a lot more by holding the raise until the turn. (But maybe not in low limit...)

Given the situation you are in, I'd be tempted to fold unless you can be sure of a large number of callers. In which case, you may have odds to go for 2pr or trips, as long as you feel this is good enough to win the pot. It is highly unlikely you had odds to go for the fh, since that is about a 250-1 shot.

It sounds like you were first to act against the raise. So you'd have to use your feel of the table to determine if you had proper odds to call. There's still a chance for a re-raise and a cap behind you so this has a risk of becoming a very expensive hand where you have at best 5 outs and your opponent has a redraw against you. I believe the correct thing to do is fold.

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magithighs

I'm making an assumption this is a low limit game.

For someone starting out, the best way to improve your game is to figure out when to fold -- especially in the blinds.

The problem with low limit is that the number of opponents in the hand almost allways provide pot odds to call at some point. The key is to figure out how to fold before that point. In many instances this would require a fold pre-flop.

There's also another phenomenon where good plays result in losing and a bad plays results in winning. The problem is that your memory is selective -- it remembers the big pot you won with J8 suited when you called two bets cold pre-flop. You start to think J8 suited is not a bad hand in late position. The reality is that J8 suited is a long term losing hand -- but you quickly forget about calling and folding the hand. And, that costs much more than the big win.

I think your hand falls into this category. It's a real crappy hand to start with. I know it's in the blinds, but the hand value stinks -- especially against many opponents. In low limit (well even up to 5/10 last night -- I won't talk about that freaking A5o that took down my AQ -- but I took the guy for allot of money later by exploiting that weakness!!!) many opponents will play any ace. So, you might be up against A6 and lose. You're also up against a flush draw, and a straight draw. They only way you're going to win is if a minor miracle occurs.

Seriously, this should be an automatic check/fold. Forget about what happened -- that's only reinforcing a bad play.

Hork42

I think it's a mistake to not raise with a set. There are many opponents and a flush draw. Make them pay to chase the draw.

On the flop you're not looking at odds to draw the full house. Based on the # of bets in there i believe it is a mistake not to take another card for 1 bet more. Unless someone in the middle is slowplaying, it's unlikely that it will get raised again after you call the 1 bet coming back to you. If you don't hit the 2nd pair or trips, then you can safely fold. If a flush card comes out, you can fold as well.

I would not bet out on the flop with this many opponents, but once you make the bet, I think you have to call the raise.

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Buster

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. Just to clarify, the game was online, very low limit (.25/.50), pretty loose (averaged 40% - 50% seeing the flop every hand).

I'm thinking now that the middle pair against so many opponents was not worth a bet on the flop, and that check/fold (or maybe check/call) instead of bet/fold was the best option.

Chugs

Since he's in the big blind and he hit middle pair on a generally rag flop, i don't mind firing out a bet to figure out where you are.

You're likely to find out really quickly if someone has hit something decent since, while the board is full of rags, they are co-ordinated rags with a flush draw and even two possible open ended straight draws possible (people playing suited connector 78 or 45).

While betting is okay, I think I would have been more inclined to have checked rather than betting out, i likely check and when it gets back to me either call for one bet or fold if it's two bets to me.

But since you did bet out, i definitely call one more bet from the LP raiser, who may be trying to buy a card on the turn. If i don't improve on the turn, i'm check folding the hand.

magithighs

Looks like this forum is alive even with Dave on vacation. Dave, you're influencing from afar -- a good sign.


I totally agree. The problem is that most low limit players will wait to extract big bets here. I spent way too much time playing low limits, and 95% of the time a set will wait until the turn to raise regardless of the board. So, Pkrfce's assessment is most likely correct, where a set is less likely by the one raising. Everyone, please keep in mind that Hork42 is abosolutely correct though.


The problem with getting odds for one more bet is that unless he hits the miracle, it will be extremely difficult for him to get away from his hand when he makes it, and is behind. It's a long-term losing call in low-limits, a) because of the set slow play factor, b) people don't fold, and two-pair with K6 and this board is extremely vulnerable -- others are getting good odds to chase you, c) it's very hard to tell if you're ahead even if you get another 6 -- I can't tell you how many times I've been taken to the cleaners bechase of an opponent holding A6 in this situation.


I humbly disagree because of bad position and an extremely vulnerable hand. There are just way too many other spots to win money in low-limit. Mostly by extremely aggressive play when you are ahead and in position, mixed in with aggressive play with good odds (say check-raising on a nut flush draw with more than three opponents), and folding the cheese. I believe this is cheese.

Perhaps I just a have big aversion to playing junk from the blinds. This was my greatest weakness and biggest leak when I was playing .5/1. Allot of shorthanded, and 1 on 1 play really helped me figure out how to stop losing money in the blinds. However, it's still my biggest weakness now. Not a money loser, but still a weakness as I think I can overcome my positional disadvantage with my skill -- and my skill really isn't that good to overcome the positional disadvantage.

ConfusedONE

agreed 100%

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ConfusedONE

had you Not folded...chances are turn and river wouldnt have been 6 :heart: and K :club:

my 1 and 1/2 cents :canada:

regards,
CO

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ScottyZ

On the flop, I'd beat my opponents into the muck.

The key idea here is that on the flop in LPLLHE, you're going to have to fold hands that may be the best hand right now, particularly against *many* players who will call a bet (or bets) on the flop with somewhat random holdings from bare Aces, to pocket pairs below bottom pair, to backdoor draws. This excessive calling is an *excellent* thing if you flop a hand you believe has a very good chance of being best at the showdown. But if you have a marginal holding and somewhat weak draw yourself, the usual benefit of being in against all those calling stations actually works against you. A large number of weak draws will add up to a large combined draw against you. And if you don't believe me, ask Lee Jones. This is implicit collusion at work.

(Hopefully it's obvious that you will probably also be called be any hands better than the pair of 6's.)

The trouble with the K6 in this example is that it has a relatively slim chance of being the best hand right now, and is facing a thin draw to improve into a hand that still may not be best at the showdown even after improving.

What you witnessed (that is, correctly folding and then hitting your hand) is very common, and it's something that takes some getting used to. It can be very frustrating to play a few good starting hands and have them lose again and again, only to watch a poor hand you just folded flop a full house followed by your opponents building a huge pot that you would have taken down.

Don't get fooled into thinking your decision to fold (although I prefer check-fold over bet-fold) your K6 here was incorrect simply because your hand improved after the decision point. If the turn and river had been an Ace and Queen, this similarly has no effect on the correctness of the flop decision(s) you made.

ScottyZ

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DJP

If you don't call the raise, you also can get tagged by some as a bluffer, and sometimes find you'll have no credibility left at that table, until you win a few more hands. It can take some people a few wins to forget. (those that don't take notes that is)

Which is NOT to say you should call every raise. lol Just the ones you can win.

magithighs

I think you may be getting at this -- It's really quite simple, if you're tagged as a bluffer, bluff less often and you'll get paid nicely. If you're tagged as weak tight, then bluff more often and you'll steal more pots. If you're a loose aggressive, then tighten up and you'll get played at more often. No need to force an image, just go with the one you have.

magithighs

Well apart from two visits from Monkey man last night, I ran into a very simlar situation as in this post. One was in a limit game, and the other was in a NL tourney game.

Limit (5/10 party poker).

I'm in the BB with K7o, four limpers. Flop comes KJT two diamonds -- I have none. I check, MP bets, LP calls, Button calls, I fold, and EP calls. Turn is K. Checked to button who bets, and the rest fold. I don't think of this as a pot I lost, but rather how many BB I saved -- I'm confident I was behind.

No Limit

I'm in the BB with K4o, four limpers. Flop comes KT7. I check. MP makes a pot sized bet, Button calls and I fold as do the other limpers. Button takes the hand on the turn with a little bigger than pot-sized bet.


Aggression is a key part of my game. I don't want to bet into a field, with great draws and possibly a better kicker. Any time I'm in a situation where I can't be aggressive, I would prefer to get out of the hand. And, in both these situations I have top pair, lousy kicker -- which may warrant a call, but not a raise. My thinking is if doesn't warrant a raise, then I should fold. It's just my approach. Just wanted to let you know that I actually play the way I suggest.

Chugs

I have to agree with you, it's better to find your spots. Playing agressive is key, but when you don't have confidence in your hand being best, it is hard to play the hand agressively.