PLO Cash Game Analysis

stpboy · Apr 04,2006, 01:04 PM

Playing .25/.50 PLO

UTG raises the pot to $1.25
gets 4 other callers, pot $6.25

UTG is an extremely aggressive player but generally knows what he is doing in PLO.Â*
Other two relevant players are just simply solid players, nothing to tricky and fairly straight up.

stack sizes in parenthesis

Flop comes 10c Jc Qd

BB ($95) bets the pot and UTG ($45) re-pots

Folded to the button ($50) who has 10h 10d 9s 6s

What's the play?Â* I was in this hand last night.Â* What do the two other players have?

stp

pkrfce9 · Apr 04,2006, 01:19 PM

I would expect you are way behind here. You're up against at least 1 AK, most likely with freeroll to the nut flush draw. Worst case you are also against JJ or QQ and have at best 1 out but a huuuuuuuuuuuge 1 at that.

BBC Z · Apr 04,2006, 01:25 PM

..makes a pretty standard fold with bottom set.

DrTyore · Apr 04,2006, 01:38 PM

I agree... this is a (angry) fold.

You've hit the set, but if the board pairs, you're beat (unless it's a 10) by QJ, QQ, JJ, J10, Q10 etc etc depending on what they have. You're on a straight draw, but it's the dummy end and there's already a straight out there, and flush possible. BB seems to know what he's doing, (based on his stack, he either got lucky or knows the game - any read?) and is likely to have the nuts at the moment to risk that much.... don't tangle with him. Not to mention both of these guys can take your money away.

Mark

stpboy · Apr 04,2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrTyore

BB seems to know what he's doing, (based on his stack, he either got lucky or knows the game - any read?) and is likely to have the nuts at the moment to risk that much.... don't tangle with him.Â* Not to mention both of these guys can take your money away.

Mark

I'm the BB in this hand and John Adams (lamb_of_John) is the UTG. Another solid player was the guy with the set of tens. He folded.

Ok, let's take it from my perspective then. I have AKd without a redraw to anything else. After I bet the flop John repots after raising preflop. I can assume a couple of things, he either has the same hand, a set, a flush draw or the worse case scenario AKc. When he re-pots do I ram and Jam with the nuts or just call and see the turn with the outcome being me running when the board pairs or flushes? I struggle with this part of Omaha....

stp

DrTyore · Apr 04,2006, 02:08 PM

So let me get this straight...

You have the nuts, pot it for 6.25 (total pot 12.50)
John repots (calls 6.25 + 18.75 = 37.50) *** This leaves John with only 26.25
I assume the other fella folded, and in your case, I would push John all in at this ponit, if he's drawing at his flush / full house, he now has to put 26.25 into a pot of 63.75, giving him 2.4:1... I think he's still right to call here, but I will punish people when I can, and putting him allin takes away John's moves.

What other cards did you have BTW? I'm wondering if you had any clubs / 10s Js Qs to take away his outs?

Mark

stpboy · Apr 04,2006, 02:11 PM

I had the 5c and 6s I think, I was in the BB so I would really call .75 with anything even though this turned out to be a half decent hand. 1-2 punch hand....

stp

DrTyore · Apr 04,2006, 02:25 PM

So... how did it end up?

Mark

stpboy · Apr 04,2006, 02:45 PM

Ohhh, you impatient bugger you.

Pot, pot, pot, pot, pot....until all the money was in with me having the best hand.

John shows A3c without a re-draw to anything, he actually didn't even show his other two cards but said he only had his club draw.

Turn was a Js which would have given the 1010 guy the boat and the pot...

River was the 4c giving John this monster pot. What a donk.

I question it because I was unsure if I should re-push here with the best hand but without a draw of any kind, Omaha is a drawing game really....

stp

DrTyore · Apr 04,2006, 02:53 PM

The thing with Omaha...

There is very little implied odds. You usually make your money by forcing the other guy to make a mistake. In this case, John calling with a flush draw when he wasn't getting the odds.

Imagine you're playing NLHE, put a guy all in on the same board, and he calls. In this case, since John had no re-draw, it's equivalent. Actually, it's almost a worse beat since you had a club, and therefore he had only 8 outs instead of 9. If I was in his situation, I may have called, but sure as hell wouldn't re-raise to a pot bet with a straight out there already.

Mark

BBC Z · Apr 04,2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Ok, let's take it from my perspective then. I have AKd without a redraw to anything else. After I bet the flop John repots after raising preflop. I can assume a couple of things, he either has the same hand, a set, a flush draw or the worse case scenario AKc. When he re-pots do I ram and Jam with the nuts or just call and see the turn with the outcome being me running when the board pairs or flushes? I struggle with this part of Omaha....

I agree with DrT's analysis..

Now, Add a zero or two onto both stacks and I would call the flop bet and 'push/pot' a blank turn. Flush/paired board == bail.

Quote:

Pot, pot, pot, pot, pot....until all the money was in with me having the best hand.

John shows A3c without a re-draw to anything, he actually didn't even show his other two cards but said he only had his club draw.

Then your initial reads are completely wrong. John doesn't know what he's doing in Omaha and you can discount his holdings which likely makes the set laydown far more difficult. With a 7 out draw to the nuts, he should be trying to get cheap turn/river cards, not going all in against an obvious made hand.

Metro · Apr 04,2006, 04:28 PM

I probably know this - but just want to check.

In this situation - assuming the guy with the 10s doesnt fold - on the flop who has the most pot equity?

BBC Z · Apr 04,2006, 04:31 PM

www.twodimes.net

Enjoy.

Lamb_of_john · Apr 05,2006, 01:35 AM

I think my move against shannon there was a bad one, but i might make it again the original buy-in that everyone took was $30 which i busted with terrible cards and not hitting any draws. i re-bought another $40 and went form there. I wasnt getting ANY cards (even for omaha, i didnt go card dead, i just went draw-dead).

So heres where i stand on the flop.
1. I have the nut flush draw on the flop with my A3c.
2. I have another face card which gives me a pair and a re-draw to the split pot for the straight (i'm pretty sure i had the J)

I was frustrated with being so draw-dead. that also was a driving force behind my getting involved with only 9 outs for the flush ( or 12 if i factor in the other 3 kings for the split pot.

i'm putting shannon on the straight when the flop comes and he pots. so i knwo i'm either good when (or if) the club comes, or splitting and not losing money if the king hits.

I'm also thinking about a win in the long run. If i fold when shannon pots, that only leaves me with roughly $30 to move with bigger stacks on the table, which i dont like. IF i win, i have a big stack. and in omaha, a big stack is a good thing because using pots and re-pots to make other peoples draws expensive, I find is a good way to take down many more smaller pots. shannon watched me push out some people with what i read as bad draws by having nothing and just potting a few times, taking down a mid-sized pot.

this is why i'm falling in love with omaha now, as aposed to NLHE. so much more to think about. and alot more about the numbers than the tells. (at the level we are playing anyways)

feedback guys??

johnny

DrTyore · Apr 05,2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamb_of_john

So heres where i stand on the flop.
1. I have the nut flush draw on the flop with my A3c.
2. I have another face card which gives me a pair and a re-draw to the split pot for the straight (i'm pretty sure i had the J)

Didn't know about the other face card.... becomes a somewhat significant factor, but still, if your read is that the K will chop with you, why bother?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamb_of_john

I was frustrated with being so draw-dead. that also was a driving force behind my getting involved with only 9 outs for the flush ( or 12 if i factor in the other 3 kings for the split pot.

This is called "tilt"... and it's very very VERY bad in Omaha..

I think you got lucky Johnnie... but the all-in saved you from folding when the board paired on the turn just as it saved Shannon. I know you're a better player than this! Regardless, suckouts happen.. moreso in OM

Mark