st0neC0ldNutz

In SB

20/40 blinds....full table...very early in tourney (I have 1800 in chips)

UTG goes to 80 (min raise)

one caller...then...

2nd caller = 240(from the 3 x 80) + 40(BB) + 20(me in SB) = 300 in POT

its folded to me

so its 60 more to me...that is 5:1 on my $$$

do I call w/ ANYTWO? ( I have 85o )

@ What ratio (2:1, 3:1, 5:1, 10:1 etc...MUST you call with ANY two cards to see a flop cause folding would be mathematically stoopid)

thanks.

pkrfce9

Given your stack size, ya, any two. If calling represented a bigger chunk of your stack but gave similar odds, I'd want a better hand before I bothered to get involved.

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Meistro

Why would you call? I would fold this in the big blind. You are out of position with a crappy hand. You're like 30 or 35:1 to flop two pair or better and even then you're not guarenteed a win.

st0neC0ldNutz

well i did fold.

but it got me thinking...there must be a point (ratio) that it would be wrong to fold. Like if you were getting 1,000,000 to 1 on your $ you would call (ok that is extreme) and if you were getting 1.2:1 you would fold very fast...but where is the mid-point?

pkrfce9

- implied odds
- you can outplay your opponents after the flop

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BigChrisEl

I think it is a fold with the 8-5o because your cards are bad and there is still one more player to act behind you (The BB). If you were the BB you may consider it because your call would close the betting.

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st0neC0ldNutz

I just thought there might have been some rule of thumb, like "if you are getting 6 to 1 or more on your money, and to call costs less than X% of your stack, you MUST call"

There must be something out there like this - because there is a point you should call - because it might be "worth it" to call with 72o just on the off chance that you hit a miracle flop of 772.

It does not happen to much but sometimes UTG min raises and every single person calls it to you (in the SB), you think the BB will call too - so with blinds @ 25/50 (10 handed) it is implied that all you have to do is call 75 more to see a pot of 925...so that is 12.3 : 1 on your money (Huge) so do most people call this, or do you still say "72o is horrible, Im saving my $75" ?

beanie42

With truly horrible cards, you need to hit the flop REALLY hard, and even then you may not be good. With 72 and that many players, one pair is worthless, a straight/flush is probably a split or beat, and even 2 pair may not be good. When you have that many players to the flop, quite a few will get a piece of it, so you need cards that can catch a bigger piece (suited connectors, etc.). Until I'm down to my last few BB in a tourney, I'll never play garbage hoping to hit the flop (playing them to bluff is different ). In a cash game, you should never let your chips get this desperate.

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Meistro

Here's an example. You are playing 15/30, and the small blind is 2/3rds of the big blind.

4 players limp in front of you and the big blind is very passive. I would muck hands like Q3o, 72o, 85o, etc. I would play any suited cards, any connected cards, any ace, but would muck kings under K8.

These hands all suffer from reverse implied odds.

pkrfce9

I believe the OP was talking about a NL tourney.

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Meistro

Yes, he was.

Your point?

pkrfce9

Aren't you talking about a limit cash game? Different animals.

(One thing missing from the OP is info about the raiser and BB. That may also impact a decision to call a small raise with a speculative hand.)

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Meistro

I was addressing his broader question of 'how do the pot odds affect playing crappy hands from the blinds'.

Also, to the general thread, assuming you play better than your opponents and adjusting your preflop standards based on that is probably a losing philosophy. After all, what proof do you have that you play better? 80% of people when asked if they are smarter than average say yes.

pkrfce9

If you can't say with any certainty that you can outplay your opponents after the flop after sitting at the table for a while then no, you definitely should not be playing a speculative hand if it is raised to you, especially out of position.

With NL, the implied odds are more important than the pot odds in this situation. The same would not be true in limit.

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Meistro

Is 22 not a speculative hand? Even if you can't outplay your opponents after the flop, you can still call a 4xBB raise with it from the SB assuming 100xBB stacks.

That being said, playing drawing hands (axs, 87s) out of position is definitely a bad idea without solid reads on your opponents, you're 100% right there. Implied odds are an important concept in both games and I think most players misunderstand them for NL.