Low-limit Hold'm. Any recalculation of odds for tables full of maniacs?

Just Ducky · Dec 05,2007, 01:26 PM

Hi. I've started out at low limit hold'm games online (guess they can be called micro) and have noticed that these tables incur a lot of bad beats. In essence I find myself folding hands for 40 min to an hour or so and then finally I pick up something like KK or AQs in the pocket and play it. In short, someone at the table manages to suck out on me about 50% of the time when I am playing top hands. I can manage a couple of maniacs at a table but when you have 5-6 players purely playing to get lucky by the river I find it radically alters the odds. 5 out of 6 maniacs will loose out but that 1 out of 6 often seems to hit the nuts by the turn or river.

So I was wondering if there was a way to recalculate odds to take this factor into consideration?

BBC Z · Dec 05,2007, 01:29 PM

Read "Winning Low Limit Holdem" by Lee Jones.

Report back in a week.

Just Ducky · Dec 05,2007, 07:27 PM

Hey thanks. I'm reading it now. Good stuff.

ReefAquarium · Dec 06,2007, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Ducky

Hi. I've started out at low limit hold'm games online (guess they can be called micro) and have noticed that these tables incur a lot of bad beats. In essence I find myself folding hands for 40 min to an hour or so and then finally I pick up something like KK or AQs in the pocket and play it. In short, someone at the table manages to suck out on me about 50% of the time when I am playing top hands. I can manage a couple of maniacs at a table but when you have 5-6 players purely playing to get lucky by the river I find it radically alters the odds. 5 out of 6 maniacs will loose out but that 1 out of 6 often seems to hit the nuts by the turn or river.

So I was wondering if there was a way to recalculate odds to take this factor into consideration?

When there are many players to the flop.

Big unsuited cards like KQo, AJo go down in value. Dump them to a raise.
Suited connectors and small pairs go up in value.

blueodum · Dec 07,2007, 02:21 PM

"Small Stakes Holdem." - Ed Miller.

If there are many players seeing the flop in a full LHE ring game (loose and possibly passive game), the idea is to play Ax suited, hoping for a nut flush; mid to high suited connectors, hoping to make a flush or straight; pairs, hoping to hit a set/boat. Play your AA, KK and QQ aggressively until you know you are beat.

If you flop a premium draw, play it aggressively as long as there are 2 or more players in the pot with you. Attempt to knock out opponents with weak holdings, so that even if you miss your draw you may win the pot with a lesser hand, even Ace high, because your remaining opponent(s) might have also been on a draw. Almost never fold on the river in a big pot.

Ax unsuited, even AK go way down in value, as TPTK usually won't be good enough.

You will need a bigger bankroll for the swings, as you will win fewer pots as a percentage of those you become involved in, but those you win will usually be huge.

Played correctly, such games are among the most profitable in terms of bb/hour around.

Just Ducky · Dec 07,2007, 03:05 PM

Well I've improved my game, unfortunately all I seem to do is more or less break even after a few hours of play. I'm trying to build a bankroll playing 10/20cent or 25/50cent games which is proving ridiculous. Somehow I figured I could take $50, turn it into $100 and build it from there with bonuses from different poker sites. Something like that. As it stands now, I could build a bankroll faster if I applied my time into a low wage second job as oppose to low limit hold'm online.

So it appears that to build a bankroll you got to start at a certain $ level or you're just spinning your wheels.

ScoobyD · Dec 07,2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

So it appears that to build a bankroll you got to start at a certain $ level or you're just spinning your wheels.

You can still build a BR, but you need to have your expectations in check. If you think that you're going to average $5/hr playing .25-.50, you better expect to play something like 500hands/hr (beating the game at a respectable 2BB/100).

There's a reason people "grind it out". It's because your edge is a lot smaller than you probably think it is.

g2 · Dec 07,2007, 10:03 PM

Sounds to me like you want to jump to medium stakes so you can make some decent coin. But what makes you think you can beat the medium stakes games if you're just break even at low stakes? I think you're better off playing the low stakes now for the experience, even if it feels like it's taking forever to build a roll.

/g2

blueodum · Dec 08,2007, 09:38 AM

I was once where you are.

I started out with $300 online at UB and I played in the 50c/$1 LHE full ring games to start. Once I got to about $500 I moved on to $1/$2 LHE. I think these games were a lot easier in 2005 when I was doing this than they are now because multi-tabling as we know it now (8+ tables) was very uncommon then, and lots of the fishies new to hold'em have long since gone busto (new players now go straight into NLHE).

My advice to you is to pick up a Sit-n-go strategy book, learn the basics, and start by multi-tabling two-dollar STTs (you should be able to handle 6-8 tables). These are, in my opinion, more easily beat than low limit LHE right now (mostly because of the rake versus tourney fee).

BrickWall · Dec 08,2007, 09:45 AM

Has play at even the micro-stakes gotten tougher? I started about 1.5 years ago playing .05/.10 limit on Stars. Turned $50 into $200, then started grinding out bonuses on many Prima sites at .25/.50 and .50/1. You have to read a few books: Winning Low Limit Holdem (Lee Jones); Internet Texas Holdem (Matt Hilger); Small Stakes Hold'em (Ed Miller et al). Now I play 1/2 and 2/4 online while getting rakeback. Do some casino bonuses as well. They are not like they used to be, but there are some decent ones out there that really pad the BR nicely.

Just Ducky · Dec 08,2007, 04:29 PM

Update:

I've learned a lot so far. I pay more attention to betting patterns of other players as well I have learned to stay away from certain tables. I also don't allow myself to get caught up with top hands if the flop is not favorable. Finally I realized that AK is not that good of a starting hand as I previously thought.

Anyways, Gonna earn up a bit more in ring games and then try some tournaments. I don't think I'm at the level to play multiple tables same time though.

pokerJAH · Dec 08,2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Ducky

In short, someone at the table manages to suck out on me about 50% of the time when I am playing top hands.

They are not sucking out on you, they are playing better poker (unfortunately). Stop playing typical top hands, and mixing up your play. Every time I sit down at a cash game, I see these players that only play the top 7 hands and I feel bad for taking all their money with 36off. Eventually they quit or they learn from their mistakes and take all my money with 23 off a couple of weeks later (lol).

Just Ducky · Dec 09,2007, 02:03 AM

Well I'm just about busted out. Tried everything from tight to loose and I haven't been able to deal with the numerous maniacs that float in and out of the rooms. Add to that good players changing up their play and it just gets impossible to read anyone's hand. I've suffered bad beats, crazy bluff outs, my good hands getting burned on the river numerous times. I can't believe the amount of time I've spent struggling over a couple of dollars, it's ridiculous.