5/5 Live hand for review

blackmagicz · Sep 05,2009, 08:02 PM

Hey guys,

Just wanted some thoughts on a hand I played last night. I thought I played it pretty poorly.

Here is the situation:

Live 5/5 game, its been pretty tight, I am the aggressor for the most part in this game opening a wide range of hands because everyone seems to be a habitual limper.

The hand:

I am in late position with 7d9d, 5 people limp, effective stacks of 350 at this point.

Flop:

Ad4c4d

It is checked to me so I bet out 15 and I am check raised to 30 and then the biggest stack on the table flats. I was thinking about folding at this point but the best hand I can give someone in this spot I believe is 4X. The original checkraiser is an older gentlemen who seems to play his hands face up and makes a lot of folds to big bets unless he has the nuts, the flatter in this hand seems to have had the deck hit him, he is also playing ABC poker and doesn't have regard for anyone else's hand holding and is just playing his own hand based on the board.

Turn:

Jd

Three people see the turn and the original check raiser now checks, but player who flatted with the biggest stack on the table leads out for 70.

Ok so with that being said:

1. Do you flat or raise in this spot?
2. What hand range do you give the player with the lead of 70? (a hint, the other player folds and we are heads up)

After a couple of answers I will give out the information about what I did and the results.

Thanks again

pokerJAH · Sep 07,2009, 08:21 PM

ok, I will break the ice. You are chasing a flush, get there and now are pondering what to do. What's the point of chasing the flush with a paired board if you will hesitate when you make the flush?

If the flatter had the boat on the flop, wouldn't he have raised instead of calling on the flop? Would he call on the flop with JJ with an ace on the board?

I might re-raise in this situation $100 to see where I stand. If he calls, I am probably behind. If he pushes at this point, I know I am likely beat.

You could just call if you don't expect a huge bet on the river from this player and just call another small river bet and hope you don't get beat by a better flush.

My prediction, you pushed on the turn.

blackmagicz · Sep 07,2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerJAH

ok, I will break the ice. You are chasing a flush, get there and now are pondering what to do. What's the point of chasing the flush with a paired board if you will hesitate when you make the flush?

If the flatter had the boat on the flop, wouldn't he have raised instead of calling on the flop? Would he call on the flop with JJ with an ace on the board?

I might re-raise in this situation $100 to see where I stand. If he calls, I am probably behind. If he pushes at this point, I know I am likely beat.

You could just call if you don't expect a huge bet on the river from this player and just call another small river bet and hope you don't get beat by a better flush.

My prediction, you pushed on the turn.

Yeah I am thinking I should have donk folded the flop. Knowing that even if I hit my flush I may not be good (like we were talking about at the table before the hand happened

)

ryanghall · Sep 08,2009, 04:15 AM

Just check the flop. There's, what, 7 ppl in the pot? You think you're taking it down? Do you *really* want to build a huge pot?

Ryan

ryanghall · Sep 08,2009, 04:17 AM

By the way, even considering raising the turn is absolutely horrendous.

Ryan

blackmagicz · Sep 08,2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanghall

Just check the flop. There's, what, 7 ppl in the pot? You think you're taking it down? Do you *really* want to build a huge pot?

Ryan

Not looking to build a pot but also looking to figure out where I stand. In this situation I am looking to find out information about other players hands. The caliber of play at this game is quite low so I know with a probing bet on the flop I can evaluate the equity in my hand based on actions of other players.

In this case because I get min-check raised I know right away there is a 4 out there so I know possibly there are outs for a fullhouse but at the same time if I hit my flush it may be hard for them to fold the 4X because I led the flop looking like I had AX.

T8urmoney · Sep 08,2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerJAH

If the flatter had the boat on the flop, wouldn't he have raised instead of calling on the flop?

uhhhhmmmmmm..........no

T8urmoney · Sep 08,2009, 02:20 PM

Ok...first, don't like betting the flop here....but......as played.......

These are the tough spots I hate getting into (but make the game so much fun in an evil way). Villain's hand can still be a wide range when he flats the raise....

Based on your description of his play, I would say his holdings would be in this order:

1. Flush (probably bigger than yours)
2. Full House (you're fucked)
3. Just an Ace, with high diamond backup
4. Trips

Being that you can only beat 2 of these scenarios (and maybe not by river)........my instincts tell me to fold.....but I probably call and see what he does on river since you've now made your hand.

If he bets large on river......easy fold....if he's just got flush or trips, it will be hard for him to bet large on river.

pokerJAH · Sep 08,2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanghall

By the way, even considering raising the turn is absolutely horrendous.

I rather fold or bet in this situation. If I just call I know I am faced with a big bet on the river anyways so a re-raise on the turn lets me know where I stand and I may even win the hand outright or get a free river card.

ReefAquarium · Sep 08,2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackmagicz

1. Do you flat or raise in this spot?

I don't raise. I'm not even sure I should call.
This is a decision for stacks, since his next pot sized bet will put it all in. I don't have a big hand that I want to play for stacks. Do I?

Quote:

2. What hand range do you give the player with the lead of 70? (a hint, the other player folds and we are heads up)

After a couple of answers I will give out the information about what I did and the results.

Thanks again

Even "playmyownhandABC" players notice a min-checkraise....I'd put him on something pretty good. What can you beat?

Why would an ABC player with a 4 bet into a board when a flush and a full house/quads are out there?
A naked 4 or AJ doesn't make sense here.
I don't think he's going to have the balls to semibluff Kdx or Qdx into someone who checkraised the flop and checked the turn.

Will he play suited A4 preflop? That and 44 makes sense given the betting.

Suited cards: KdXd QdXd maybe — Since you raised on the flop, he would fold all worse flushes and keep flushes better than yours.

ReefAquarium · Sep 08,2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

(a hint, the other player folds and we are heads up)

Since the other player folded he doesn't have a 4 (He would have odds to call after you call if he had a 4) Unless you raised and pushed him off the hand.

blackmagicz · Sep 08,2009, 03:29 PM

Interesting responses.

I think some keys here that hurt this hand are effective stacks (350) so basically the turn bet of 70 somewhat commit you to the hand.

Also because I take the lead on the flop that can disguise my flush draw so perhaps villian doesn't put me on the draw and if he has the naked 4 he figures i can't call a bet on the turn and if I do he thinks I may be drawing for a diamond to 4 flush him.

Anyways, as played, as soon as I call the 70 villian goes all in blind before the river card and obviously I call. The river was a 2d and he flips over A4 for the made boat on the flop.

Funny thing was Pokerjah was sitting beside me and we were just talking about how you should not be playing flushdraws on paired boards as the equity doesn't outweigh the possibilities of getting your money in drawing dead.

Thanks for the analysis as always. Enjoy the thought processes of others.