pokerJAH

This is a hand from a couple weeks ago. 5/5 game at local GTA club. Your in middle position and get dealt KK. There is a strattle in this hand for $10 and two players call before Villian 1 makes it $40 to go. Villian 1 is a very TAG player and has only played a few hands at your table. When he plays a hand he always raises and is usually in position. He also typically makes a continuation bet of about 75% of the pot if the hand is checked to him on the flop. $40 is a standard raise for him. It is folded to you and you make it $80 to go, trying to isolate Villian #1 or entice him into making a further re-raise. Folded around to the SM who calls (Villian #2). Villian #2 is also tight but doesn't mind getting all his chips in the middle with a big pair. He previously pushed pre-flop for $300 with QQ and also called a big raise pre-flop with AQ. Tends to like the face cards. V#1 also calls the $40 raise.

Flop comes Q82 rainbow. SB insta pushes for $360 (there is about $300 in the pot). Villian #1 folds. Do you call? You have him covered.

I'm more interested in your thought process in deciding whether you would make the call. What factors do you take into consideration when deciding whether you call or fold?

epic_donk

Absolutly I'd call.

Small chance he'd raise with q,8 (2 pr).. I put him on AQ (maybe suited) and at that point you have him beat.

no brainer my chips are matching his at the middle of the table.

what ended up happening?

Wetts1012

I think I have to call this.

I dont think sets ever play this way, And I dont want a multiway pot with AA pre in a cash game OOP so I think you get that transparency preflop.

So I discount QQ/88/22 for sure. AA is possible but less likely. There arent, or shouldnt be, and 2 pair hands out there.

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GTA Poker

I think it's an easy call in a live game (without more detailed reads) given that you are playing less than 100bb effective stacks. I reraise more preflop -- a pot-sized reraise. Either way I call getting about 2:1 here. Would post more details but I'm at work and have to run..will update some thoughts later

thought process -- not very deep in a live cash game with an overpair on a dry board -- easy call vs range at 2:1

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DrTyore

I was going to say the same

The pre-flop re-raise with KK is not big enough. Do that, and then everything post flop becomes simple. With villain #1's raise, the pot becomes $80 (SB/BB $10, Straddle $10, limp x2 $20, raise $40 = $80). If you're going to raise a decent amount, adding your $40 call (p$120), your raise needs to be at least $100 ON TOP - so, $140, making the $10 limpers / straddles call $130 into a pot of $260, or the Villain #1 to call $100 into $260.

Your "raise" of $80 to go means the blinds have to call $75 into a pot of 160, or 2.1:1 odds, the straddle / limpers have to call $70 into a $160 pot 2.3:1, and the original raiser has $40 into a $160 or 4:1. Your crappy raise is giving the Villain odds to call with Ax. Bad bad bad raise. And that's not accounting for anyone else coming along for the ride. Someone else calls, and he's getting odds to call with a beer cap and a coaster from the strip joint next door. As for the others, I know a lot of people who will call with 2:1 odds or better, and depending on how much you have back, probably should call.

So, now you make it $140 to go, and let's say you get the same action, Villain 1&2 calling. So now, you have a pot of $455 (Villaiin 1 & 2 - 280, Your bet, 140, straddle, limpers, and BB - 10, 10, 10, 5). He pushes his $360 in, and you have to call $360 to win $815 with an overpair. Easy decision.

Also, you're either mis-recreating the hand, or you're wrong about middle position...
Seat:

1 - SB
2 - BB
3 - Straddle
4 - Limp #1
5 - Limp #2
6 - Villain #1
7 - One folder (you said folded to you)
8 - Cutoff / Hero?
9 - Cutoff / Dealer
10* - Dealer

Depending on 9 or 10 handed, you're either cutoff, or cutoff + 1, either way... late position.

As played, you can call off your money and complain about the bad beat you let them get to with proper odds, or you can fold and use it to reassure yourself and use as an example of why the "math" is wrong. Don't forget to add the self-delusion!!

Mark

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darbday

im in for these reasons, but also maybe cause im a donk.

jdAA88

this

pokerJAH

thanks for the feedback; with regards to the minimal re-raise, although this was a 5/5 game, the standard raise was $15-$25 so I figured I would not get a call from most of the other players and was trying to entice a further re-raise from the TAG player. He was extremely aggressive (especially after the flop) so it would not be unlike him to raise again with any pair or AK-A10. I agree that a bigger re-raise was likely warranted but it was really directed at V#1 based on his earlier aggressiveness. In most situations, I would have likely made it $120-$140ish to see the flop.

With regards to stack sizes, I had about $800 and V#1 had about $900. V#2 stack of $440 was decent for this game. Unlike most casinos, its not uncommon to see a lot of players buying in to a 5/5 game for $200. This was also a new table that had only been running about an hour so still not any huge stacks. I had doubled through V#2 earlier when I hit two pair with A2 vs his AQ. Villian #2 had rebought twice already for $300.

Shtebs

How TAG can he be if he might reraise with something like A10, AJ or any pair? Unless you think he's putting you on an absolute steal a TAG player would not reraise with mediocre hands. You're miles ahead of him in this hand preflop if he can't repop you back.
The one I fear the most post flop is the supposed tag player maybe calling with QQ, once he folds you have to be ahead here. If villain #2 flopped any set he's going to give the two preflop raisers some rope so you can start the betting for him (as previously stated before this post). At best, I have villain #2 on AQ so I call the push here.

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Richard~

Just curious, is there any reason to fold here? Like ever? Unless you're wibing off some crazy "omg, I have an overpair" tell I don't see any reason to think you're not crushing his range on this board

DennisG

As Shtebs said...how TAG is he if his ep range has a10 and AJ?...and if he is aggressive post flop..and will re-raise preflop with that range....we want as much in the middle preflop as possible.

Preflop, I definitely 3bet his raise (min) (this because I would probably have been 3 betting a variety of hands at this point) But...what do they think of you? What have you shown besides your A2? What is your range? ( to them?)

After the flop comes down Q high...get it in the middle before the other guy has a chance to finish stuttering "all in"..As Wetts (I think it was) said..no one shoves a set here...unless they are levelling you..which is also something I might do to an aggressive bunch..but whatever...it's definitely in the middle.

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pokerJAH

ok, this is often one aspect of my game I often forget to consider at the table. As this is my first time at this club, and I am more comfortable playing 1/2 or 2/5, I am usually very tight until I get a feel for the game. As noted, I did double through V#2 with two pair but this was in a hand when I was the BB and the pre-flop raise was I think a min raise (AQ actually didn't reraise). I also won a sizable pot when I flopped a straight with JQ and the other player had flopped the bottom end of the straight. I also won a couple big hands with nice size raises on the turn and didn't show my cards (flopped a set and also had an open ended straight draw in another hand). Haven't really shown any strange calls and I suspect V#1 realizes I am playing ABC poker but I don't expect V#2 really is thinking about what I might have (just playing hjis own cards).

can you explain this a bit further, when would you shove with a set.

DrTyore

It's pretty obv. what his image is.

He plays premium hands, or at least very good hand in position, and then post flop he sees monsters under the bed. If he doesn't his MIN two pair, you can buy the pot from him.

As evidenced by: Showing down two pair FTW earlier, and the dude's push into not one, but TWO raisers.

Mark

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DennisG

Fair enough.


While I tend to do this more online, than live...I go through aggressive phases in my game...ie:lots of 3 bets, 4bets, shoves on dry flops..etc. When I am doing this, and hit a set...if I feel like the others are getting pissed with me (because I tend not to balance soon enough..lol) and the flop is sweet (A K or Q or two of them on board) I will shove my set, and often get called by a tilted A9 or two pair or the likes...

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Richard~

There's a big difference between shoving a set when you have a pot sized bet left and betting your set cause you want to increase the size of the pot imo. Spots where you need to shove your sets are extremely rare and a dry board is not one of them. Shoving a set for your last pot bet is generally pointless, even more so on a board of this texture