I don't really get shoving first.. almost all the same stong hands call you..and you get none of the kjo type money. Bristol's structure moves too fast at that point to be really excited about just taking the 2k in blinds and antes.
(this is presuming a few things..like a: there aren't a bunch of REALLY short players, because this tournament is one in a series of three where you gather points by finishing deeper...and the points are VERY top-3-centric)
You shove first so he doesn't play well against you. If you raise less and he shoves I dont see how you can call. Its such a bluff vs bluff situation that you want to raise the amount to make your call easy.
That being said, I call the 5000. you're getting almost 2.5-1 on your money, and against a higher A or a PP thats isn't AA you're about a 3-1 dogg, so you're almost getting the right pot odds. Against anything else you're a favorite so yeah, call.
I don't really get shoving first.. almost all the same stong hands call you..and you get none of the kjo type money. Bristol's structure moves too fast at that point to be really excited about just taking the 2k in blinds and antes.
plz respond?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quimby
BB isn't pushing any two against a SB raise with those shallow stacks. BB is expecting a call so you are not against a random hand.
I'll say what everyone else said.
Shove pre - you're not deep enough to play any other way.
As played call given odds.
The BB was shocked about the call, so he wasn't expecting it.
This is probably the closest of the shove/don't shove CPF hand histories, but I feel like all you guys prematurely ejaculate your chips constantly with a fear of the next street like it was Satan's home address.
( ) I fold easily.
( ) I think about for a while....but fold
( ) I think about it for a while....I have to call
( ) Insta-call
(X) You can come and play at my game anytime
C'mon, I can't seriously be the only one here..........
The BB was shocked about the call, so he wasn't expecting it.
This is probably the closest of the shove/don't shove CPF hand histories, but I feel like all you guys prematurely ejaculate your chips constantly with a fear of the next street like it was Satan's home address.
This is not a situation where you're afraid of flopping. villian has just over 10bbs and an M of 4. He's got to double up to stay in the tourny. Hero has just over 5M. They are both in a desperate situation, and they both would love to scoop pots uncontested.
What I meant to say before that you were confused about was this:
Lets say you raise 2.5x bb to 2000. He ships for 8200, a good play against this raise with almost any 2, another 6200 more.
it'll cost you 6200 to see a pot of 10200, all of a sudden you're not getting the right odds to call. How confident are you that A4 is ahead? you're only dominating A3, A2, against 33 and 22 we're a coinflip, and against hands like Kx its about 60-40. Any other PP or A and we're a 3-1 dogg. We can't call as there's far more hands that crush us then we beat, and even those hands we beat we're not that far ahead.
I dont understand why you want to keep KJ in there. You're not gaining much value by having KJ in the hand as we're only about a 60% favorite. He's almost getting the right odds to play against us, so its essentially a coinflip.
We also ship because there are hands that me might fold hand that we are behind, but not call us for his entire stack. These hands include 22-66 maybe 77 if he's tight, Ax where x is 8, maybe 9-, and fold hands we're not far ahead of like QJ, Kx, TQ, etc.
One of the keys to winning tournaments is making your decisions easy for yourself and difficult for your opponent. By going all-in you're done worrying about your odds, and you put a lot of pressure on your opponent.
The BB was shocked about the call, so he wasn't expecting it.
This is probably the closest of the shove/don't shove CPF hand histories, but I feel like all you guys prematurely ejaculate your chips constantly with a fear of the next street like it was Satan's home address.
This is not a situation where you're afraid of flopping. villian has just over 10bbs and an M of 4. He's got to double up to stay in the tourny. Hero has just over 5M. They are both in a desperate situation, and they both would love to scoop pots uncontested.
What I meant to say before that you were confused about was this:
Lets say you raise 2.5x bb to 2000. He ships for 8200, a good play against this raise with almost any 2, another 6200 more.
it'll cost you 6200 to see a pot of 10200, all of a sudden you're not getting the right odds to call. How confident are you that A4 is ahead? you're only dominating A3, A2, against 33 and 22 we're a coinflip, and against hands like Kx its about 60-40. Any other PP or A and we're a 3-1 dogg. We can't call as there's far more hands that crush us then we beat, and even those hands we beat we're not that far ahead.
I dont understand why you want to keep KJ in there. You're not gaining much value by having KJ in the hand as we're only about a 60% favorite. He's almost getting the right odds to play against us, so its essentially a coinflip.
We also ship because there are hands that me might fold hand that we are behind, but not call us for his entire stack. These hands include 22-66 maybe 77 if he's tight, Ax where x is 8, maybe 9-, and fold hands we're not far ahead of like QJ, Kx, TQ, etc.
One of the keys to winning tournaments is making your decisions easy for yourself and difficult for your opponent. By going all-in you're done worrying about your odds, and you put a lot of pressure on your opponent.
One of the keys to winning tournaments is making your decisions easy for yourself and difficult for your opponent. By going all-in you're done worrying about your odds, and you put a lot of pressure on your opponent.
This. Poker is an easy game, make your opponents stress, don't stress yourself.
First, you are afraid of running your better than average hand. You're trying to shut down shop before the flop.
a: we didn't raise 2.5x, in this scenario we raised 4x and WE HAVE AN EASY DECISION WHEN THE GUY SHOVES. Note all the 'snap call' votes.
b: IF played as you suggested... you fold out all the hands that our shitty ace is ahead of or racing with. Your shove is getting you like 5:4 against a much tighter range of hands. His play is getting him better than 2:1 with random bs like small pocket pairs and kjo in the mix.
c: you don't set yourself up to lean on other players with further raises, as we've just announced to the table that we're in 'all or nothing' mode.
d: We ARE a little bit desperate at M5 which is why we are trying to get more chips in the pot when we're in such a favourable position, this is the time to take our shot to win.
Last edited by Kristy_Sea; Nov 12,2009 at 01:29 PM.
Reason: forgot a word.
how do you expect to get any more value by raise-folding, or raise-"deciding" on the flop with effective stacks being a pot sized bet?
Haven't read the link, will now...
but the next person who says that I tolerate raise-folding, or am suggesting that you EVER EVER EVER get to the flop before putting all your chips in is getting stabbed in the eye with my stiletto.
And I hope that it is a lethal wound.
Also, Zoolook you are officially OFF my top 5 list of posters I want to make out with for not fully reading what I wrote..so there. :P
(Or at least I did want to..when you came of age in 3 years )
Last edited by Kristy_Sea; Nov 12,2009 at 10:43 PM.
It is because hands like kjo (or worse) will play that I'm advocating giving them every chance to do so easily. I don't want to narrow the range or eliminate the smallest PP's or any other random bullshit..I want the villain's all in to be as wide as possible.
What I am saying is that people itt voted 'shove' without realizing that it is fancy for 'I don't risk 5 cards when my hand is ahead of his range'
What's next, are we going to start talking about our over-valued tournament lives, folding aces preflop on bubbles, braiding each others hair and gabbing about America's next top model?
Balls out.
Last edited by Kristy_Sea; Nov 12,2009 at 10:45 PM.
Reason: also read specific: The villian in this instance didn't understand F.E. so his range to shove was even wider!
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