Regulator

In a NL ring game is there ever a good time to fold kings preflop? I just had a hand where I knew the guy had to have aces but still jammed anyway lol.

UTG raised 3 bb, I flat called in the cut off with kings, and the button makes it 12 bb, UTG calls, I make it 30 bb and the button makes it 50, UTG folds, and I know guy has to have aces but jam 120 bb or so.

I ended up hitting trips and winning, but would most of you guys fold to the 50 bb or what? Thanks for the help

800OVER

I'm not good enough to fold KK. I'l shrug and accept the AA if it happens. I'd have to think up some crazy scenario where I'm on the bubble at the world series with less than 10bb and 3 people with the same stack push in front of me. Then I'd fold. Otherwise it's all going in.

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pokerJAH

sometimes I might just call the re-raise and see a flop; if an ace comes and I still get lots of action, I will probably fold. If the flop comes Q high or lower, all my chips are typically in the middle. Hard to fold KK heads up.

Cerberus

+1 Jah. I'm finding that, while I am unable to fold them preflop, I'm getting all in a lot less with KK until after the flop. Great thing is, if you hit the K, no way in hell is buddy able to fold the AA.

blackmagicz

It's a cooler hand...simple...

ReefAquarium

Up until last night I've never seriously considered folding KK preflop in a non-short cash game for the past 4 years....


2/5 Live,

KK UTG,

Raise to $30 UTG, SB min raises to 60, BB flat calls the 60.
I 4 bet to $90 more, SB takes 5 seconds makes a speech, "Oh I might as well go all in" and quickly 5 bets $682 more all in , BB folds.. I have $780 back....

Here I have min-raise, plus a speech, plus a 5 bet plus my gut read is that he had AA ...

What do you do?

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Not smarter than a grade 5 or Kristy Sea

Regulator

You're prob right I shoulda jus flat called the re-raise, outcome of this particular hand would have been the same anyway tho. Thanks everyone for the responses.

Meistro

Not once in a million hands. Actually, I've folded kings and aces dozens of times, I'm sure. Like when you're 12 tabling tournaments and the power goes out. That sort of thing. But never purposefully folded Kings pf, I don't think. QQ and AK yes. But King's? I've folded them after the flop a fair of number of times of course.

But I didn't once make the reverse fold, which aces to kings just because a king came on the flop. Playing online poker, I had aces and got about half my stack in pf. KQJ flop and I gave up on the flop. He did in fact have kings and I wouldn't have drawn out but afterwards by the math (straight pot odds) I have to call.

T8urmoney

To me, this is situation dependant.

Reef's example shows a good case where you really have to at least think about folding. Some would surmise that you would be quite the nit if you folded them.

I know there's been situations (3 times for me) in live tourneys, where I've been certain the villain had AA, but I still get stacked anyhow.

One day I might listen to my read and ignore the odds, but not likely anytime soon.....chalk it up to a cold deck and onto the next tourney or rebuy if cash.

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bumblebeetuna

blackmagicz

What is your read on SB? It's a lot different in this case because of effective stack sizes...

ReefAquarium

Stuff I probably should have put in my original post.

My read on the SB is that he has AA.
He hasn't shown himself to be the kind of player that makes reverse fake tells.
I've been on the table about an hour and have been playing pretty solid, building my stack up from $500. I haven't stacked anyone yet, but I haven't been caught being out of line or bluffing.

I have not been LAGing it up, The table is too loose passive to play anything but Tight Aggressive.
I'm not sure but nobody has made a 4 bet or a 5 bet at this table for the past hour since I sat down.

I think what got my alarm bells ringing are the min bet followed by the speech.

I haven't laid down KK preflop in a semi-deep cash game for years.... In fact. I can't remember ever folding KK in a cash game with 100+BB stacks.


... it's $682US to you...

What do you do?

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Not smarter than a grade 5 or Kristy Sea

blackmagicz

Well in this case I think you have contradicted yourself in your playing and your reads. If I read this correctly (which I think 90% of the forum knows I skim posts, make errors, then go correct after I have actually sat and read the post...lol) you raised UTG and SB min raises you and then you re-pop him and he finally shoves??

But the min raise to you automatically put warning bells in your head that villian indeed had AA, so my question is why are you opening the betting again?

You have position on him, which
A) helps with pot control, because on a dry flop he may check to you expecting you to fire a bet to lead into a check raise where your hands are tied.
B) if an Ace comes you are saved (as Pokerjah points out) and in that situation he will most likely check the flop to you expecting you to continuation bet
C) if you do flop a king, you stack him because you can easily lead into the pot on the flop, villian then puts you on some sort of magical king (thinking to himself if hero actually had KK why didn't he re-raise my raise, must have KX so I have him right where I want him...)

I hate folding KK preflop but however there have been times where I am deep and I have just flatted here to make sure the above shove does not happen because I rather lose a 200 dollar pot playing with a donkey that can't maneuvre with AA because they can't put you on a hand, then shipping off your stack because you have pot committed yourself by opening the betting again. (You can also take down the pot if some sort of scary board comes where villian won't play for stacks with just 1 pair .....ie 4 card straights, flushes etc)

I think here is where your read needs to match your play. SB obviously gave you credit for a big hand and didn't know exactly how big your hand was (ABC poker dictates UTG raise=monster, but what monster no one knows, so instead of 3-4x betting UTG forcing him into decision, we min raise expecting to get maximum value out of our hand....lmao)

It's a crying fold on my part based on the above information and the way the hand was played.

ReefAquarium

Thanks for the input!!!

I'm not sure you should close the betting and check to a min raise here.

I'm trying to balance two factors:

1. Play a bigger hand with everything else except AA .... I'm betting $90 into a $180 pot to try to get more the stacks into the pot preflop, since I'm far ahead of everything except AA.
2. Close the betting when he min raises my $30 bet if he has AA.


Yes my posts and actions do seem to contradict themselves. I bet despite the min raise warning bells.
Yes, I agree the re-opening of the betting by re-poping it $90 is a bad play if he has AA.

But it's only bad against ONE hand... vs ... It's really bad against that one hand.

The min raise sent up warning bells that he may have AA ... vs ... Getting value from JJ, QQ, AK

But there's a host of other hands that he could be min raising with ... vs ... Min raising is a typical donk AA move here.

4Betting $90 into a $180 pot with $682 back doesn't pot commit you... does it? .. vs ... Getting blown off the hand and losing your chance to stack the villian.

As an aside, Do you really want to play KK profitably for set value here? 7.5 to 1 and villain only has $772 back, pot is only $120? (BB was a short stack about $300, I cover both)

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blackmagicz

Well thats my point..if you are totally convinced that villian has AA then opening the betting is incorrect....but if you think villian can have some underpair then opening the betting is perfect.

Ideally here if you assign a range of hands that villian can be playing this way in that specific position you should be able to extract his whole entire stack on the flop if is indeed raggy.

My thoughts with the commitment comment were as follows. You are betting 90 into 180 so you have 270 in the middle, figure the first bet is going to have to be 150-200 range to take down the pot, so effectively if SB leads out that amount you now have anywhere between 350-470, so effectly at that point you will be committing yourself. I guess I was looking a street ahead to figure out what a possible flop bet would be with those stacks. At that point I think its hard to get away from an almost 500 dollar pot when you are both still deep.

So that brings up the question how do you want to play your KK. If you play it fast essentially you are re-raising in position and getting exactly what you want. A shove. When playing KK or AA specifically I like to evaluate stack sizes before I put in a raise, as if to say, if I get called or re-raised will it induce a shove by the villian (do I want that) or can I grab their stack based on my bets.

Most times with my big hands I make oversize raises (I am talking about a 5/10 game) so if I have a stack of say 500+ I will put in a bet of 50-60. Why because what I am doing is trying to build a pot to allow the villian to get mixed up to the point where they have to cal a big bet on the flop.

If you read Harrington on Cash games he explicitly talks about this strategy and the % of times if you do certain bets, raises, calls will that allow you to grab an opponents stack.

I would suggest picking up both those books to learn that strategy because you will find it will allow you to better evaluate how you want to play your hand based on the players at the table.

Essentially what I am saying is if you raise to 30 preflop you have to know why you are doing it, and not necessarily just because that is what you figure is the standard raise. If you start looking at your bets on new levels you will realize that if you maybe put in a 40-50 dollar raise which is an overbet in a 2/5 game there will be a % of times where you grab stacks because 22-QQ overplay their hands, and like you realized here AA will not understand how to play back at you and you can quickly assign a range to remove yourself from the hand.

Its a little off on a tangent but that is another way to help balance your ranges and confuse your opponents.

As for playing KK for set value, if you know villian has a monster you are getting it in anyways unless AA can fold putting you on KK but then the same rules apply to him on how many times is he going to run into a set of Ks when you hold AA.

A perfect example from this was yesterday when I was goofing around at casino niagara playing 1/2 (long story). I pick up KK in mp, I raise to 15 get 4 callers. Flop comes Q105 rags..EP bets out 10, I call 10 looking to trap, buddy beside me goes to 25, orginal better calls, I shove for 95. Snap call by guy beside me and he has QQ for a set. Now did I play my hand wrong, can I get away, not really, but how many times am I going to stack QQ on a dry flop because of the way he played his hand preflop. I did put him on AQ when he raised there and it was a misread on my part, but technically i would have figured QQ to re-raise preflop to isolate.....

Remember sometimes playing optimum poker still results in you losing the hand because someone has misplayed their hand.

ReefAquarium

Thanks for the input!!!!

Exactly! I didn't come to the conclusion that the Villain had AA after he min bet... it took the 5 bet plus speech to convince me he had AA.

After the minraise I put the Villain on a big pair or AK.
I made a small half pot 4 bet (90 into a 180 pot) when I could have closed the action.
After he 5 bet all in and made a little speech, "I might as well go all in"

I put him on on AA.

I got the shove I thought I wanted when I 4 bet, but the little speech made me think, "Fuck this guy has AA"

I thought more about the Villain, He seemed smarter than most 2/5 players, bright enough to realize that I was playing a big hand and I was stupidly playing with my hand face up.

I said, "I have KK" want to see?

He looked away...

I started to show my hand, But was quickly informed that you can't do that at Seneca.

I looked carefully at his hands, his face, his neck muscle, his carotid artery.... I watch his breathing for a bit...

Shit! I thought, "I haven't folded KK preflop in a deepish cash game since at least the last 4 years or so."

My gut said, "He has AA 100%"

You're right you know. I changed my mind about the hand at this point.
I really, really regretted making that 4 bet.


After the min bet I put the villain on a big pair or AK.
After the 5 bet speech I put him on just AA.

I chose to make a smallish 4 bet so that we would be flirting with, but not over the commitment threshold (about 25% stacks).

Yes, my 4 bet was to get more money in the pot so the next bet determines if we are playing for stacks. I changed my mind when I go the shove I thought I wanted, the speech made me re-evaluate.
This is a good idea!!
I like the 10% of your stack bet size! It lets you get it all in on the turn without overbettting the pot (much).

Yes I love the HoCG books, I've read them both about 7-10 times. (I'm kinda dumb so I need to keep re-reading them.)

I have the problem where I know how to play and still I play stupidly sometimes. I think it's because I don't think enough at the table.

Thanks! I like this strategy!

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Not smarter than a grade 5 or Kristy Sea