syphilaids

Villian is loose aggressive, watched him rake in $300 with pure aggression without showing down much hands.

utg calls ($2) ($180)

utg+1 calls ($350)

villian (high jack) calls ($600 behind)

Hero (BU): AcKc raises to $15 ($400 behind)

blinds fold, everyone else calls. 4-way pot.

Pot=$63
FLOP
Kh Qh 7c
everyone checks
Hero bets $45
2 folds, villian calls

Pot=$153
TURN Qd
Villian checks
Hero I think I'm in a way ahead way behind situation. Either I have him beat and betting here will usually get him to fold, or he has me crushed, or he's drawing hot. I don't want him to draw for free, but I don't want to swelter the pot with a mediocre hand. I check.

RIVER Ts
Board = Kh Qh 7c Qd Ts
Villian bets $100.
HERO ?

No idea what to do here. Either he's bluffing his missed draw or we are screwed. We are getting 2.5:1 odds here, the question is do we win more then 30% of the time? is it worth the call? How often do we have him here? what do you put him on?

Hobbes

You gave up on the turn, so he's betting the river.

Has villian been known to check raise ugly turns?

I think your ahead here. Call.

Edit: bet the turn $80-$100 and you'd prob have your answer.

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Hobbes
Playing micros is like getting a rectal exam from a leper who walks away with 9 fingers.

syphilaids

But this is more of an argument for a check, no?
If I bet on the turn and ships, I have to fold. I still lose approx. the same amount (maybe save me $20 if I bet your min value) and I don't get to a showdown.
Also by checking the turn he could bluff many rivers here with missed draws (essentially the only thing I'm ahead of that bets here, unless he's going to spew with a weaker K, which is totally possible given my action on the turn). Given that I have shown weakness, I highly think He'd bet a TJ hand or 2 hearts here.

hendo

i agree on the range of two hearts or up and down straight draw, of course he is making the call on the flop he has enough out to make the made hand, when he checks on the turn i would fire out 80-100 it's a live game so if worst and he shoves (i still think your ahead) you can reload, when the river comes he bets seeing that you gave up, i call the 100 and start raking in my money LOL

Wetts1012

I mean, you checked the turn for pot control (I like it). Almost always in these spots you're either looking to bluffcatch, or bet for value on the river.

I mean he has a wide range of heart draws, straight draws, k's and q's here. Of this range only the Q's got there.

I think we call and feel good about it.

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darbday

+1

ya ...that missed flush draw.....just gotta know he shows up with queens lots....


actually....with your raise preflop unless he totally doesn't understand hand ranges i think you can totally bet the turn. He can't be sure you don't have a queen (or aa kk), and if you put in a small raise he's usually gonna only re raise without a queen. He'll check/call a queen, and check raise the river....but you wouldn't bet the river so no worries....

if he re raises the turn small then you can call and evaluate the river...knowing that many times he'll check a queen on the river and check some turn bluffs (he gives up because he doesn't know if you have a queen ,kk or aa)

if he shoves your turn raise then you can look for a better spot against a guy who either donk shove bluffs or donk shoves tirp queens...anyways if he shoves then you likely weren't gonna see a river cheap know matter what....

i use this turn play lots but its in the the 4 dollars.

its also important to bet the drawy bored...and i know your better than that (and likely me) and decided keeping the pot small is more important but i just think it helps justify a turn bet.....also stops villian from tilting me with tt aj (well maybe not.

syphilaids

Thanks for the posts.

I've realised that my weakest leak is going to town with AK too much. Checking the turn for me was, I think, my chance at pot control when deep stacked, plus inducing bluffs on the river.
After inducing a bluff on the river all of a sudden I'm thinking of folding....A little silly, but I'm glad you peeps had your 2 cents.

darbday, villian COULD have TT or AJ here, but it's so rare that I'm willing to give him a free card. I know in micro stakes they show up with this all too often, so when I'm playing micro tournies, which I do often, I will double barrell.
In live 1/2, after facing a 3/4 pot size bet, they usually don't call here, unless it's AhJh, but more often then not they will ship the flop.

Anyway, Villian ended up showing Qs8s for trips. I shake my head and say "nice hand". Freaking poker.

blackmagicz

You need to barrel the turn. By checking you do not get any info. As played my thought orocess is this. You raise pre in position and define your hand. You know villian is a lagtard so expect him to call with any two. When you barrel sat the flop you know most times you will be ahead here. His call on the flop has to give you a range of hands (as you put out). The key here is lagtard knows what you have. He would never bet out a king on the river and a bluff would be some random number or shove. The bet on the river is a value bet. He knows you have some interest in the hand because of your bet on the flop. The key here is the bet that needs to be placed on the turn. You are looking for tells at this point. Most lagtards would check their hole cards before calling a bet. That signals to you that they are making sure they have a hand worth calling your bet. The lead on the river is a "I have a hand and I hope you call"

darbday

thx for the response, i do know tt aj happens but is more of a joke... its not to be feared so much, can't help but feel like i get rivered everytime i don't bet the turn, but thats totally about me not you.

i do sincerely think though if you made a value sized bet on the turn 50-65 bux maybe ...he woulda called and then checked the river to you....

great hand great post.

syphilaids

Right, but where am I getting value from on the turn? SD and FD for sure, KJ- as well.

I don't see any point in betting "for information". If he beats me allready, I lose a lot more then I lost. If we get C/R here, are we calling?

If he outdraws me on the river, He'll probably donk bet and I may or may not call depending on the card. Again I lose more.

If he has a KJ type of hand, He may not even call another bet due to the texture of the board. I just push him off. If he does call a bet here, do we fire another on the river?

The issue is this. I can't imagine a card that comes on the river that I want to value bet on. I'm scared of any heart, A, 9. They only thing I would really want to see is a rag or a K.

By checking the turn I think I lose less and win more when he tries to bluff us off / value bet his K. Betting the turn will only charge the draws to chase while simultaneously building a pot where I could be drawing almost dead to a boat or a Qx hand.

When I'm 200 bbs deep to start, I dont want this. If I had something like 50bbs behind me then for sure I ship the turn, but we are both deep and I prefer to keep the pot in control.

blackmagicz

But you have assigned him as a maniac player so you have to give him the according randge. You are assigning to hands that rarely show up her based on your description of him as a player. He can't go from a loose cannon to a tag in the same hand. I just throw a lot of hands away that you give him credit for. I mean its almost like you want to play the hand as if you were playing against yourself and what you would do where as your skill level is much greater and the standard abc poker rule applies.

blackmagicz

Sory for the typos I post from my bb

Richard~

For sure I don't bet turn. No way villain knows what we have just cause we're betting, he's not calling to outdraw a big hand, he's calling cause he might be good. I like potcontrolling the turn, but I'm still looking the guy up on the river unless I have a reason not to, which 9 times out of 10 I won't have

syphilaids

The thing is, even if he's a spewy McSpew of all spewtards, they don't call the flop without SOMETHING. The 2nd Q on the turn either makes him way ahead or way behind. A spewer would call with 2nd or 3rd pair, as well as gutshots and all sorts of dumb draws. Betting the turn will indeed get value from the hands I beat, but it'll basically take my whole stack if I'm wrong.

Although I'm generally ahead of his range, I don't crush it. Checking the turn will give me pot control and help me re-evaluate the river. It may also induce bluffs, which I think is a much more +ev play.

darbday

so if you bet the turn you think he re raises with a queen on the turn, or leads the river with a large bet when he has a queen? Even after you showed aggression on the turn?....i just thought if you bet the turn he will check the river...regardless of his hand.