syphilaids

Exactly.
Thats why I like to check the flop and have him bet the turn. look at it this way:

Scenario 1: He has a Q. I bet the turn. He either calls or raises.
-if he raises I think I ahve to fold. But depending on his action/amount I may call.
- if he flats the turn the bets the river I have no idea where I stand. I probably make the call just as I would when I check the turn, and lose a much larger pot.

Scenario 2: He has a draw. I bet the turn.
- He either calls or folds. Maybe once in a while he raises. If he raise I have no idea where I stand.
- he flats. He makes his draw and bets the river. Depending on the amount/card that comes I may or may not call. I either lose the same amount as checking when I fold, or I lose a much larger amount when I call.
- he flats. He misses his draw. He check/folds because I show strength. I a turn bet when he doesn't bluff at it.
- if I check the turn and he has a draw, he may decide to bluff at it when he misses, as its the only chance he has at winning the pot.

Scenario 3: He has a weaker K. This is the only time I make money by betting the turn. Even then, he may or may not call, as he has to give me credit for a good hand.

In all these scenarios combined I can't really see where betting the turn really give me that much mroe value.

darbday

i think you meant check the turn and bet the river.


Scenario 1: He has a Q. I bet the turn. He either calls or raises.

I doubt a guy re raises with a queen especially a spewtard (a donk) who wouldn't want to bet you off the hand. He's gotta think he just sucked you in. And i think he likely checks the river to suck you in since you bet the turn so your likely to bet the river.

Scenario 2: He has a draw. I bet the turn.

Then you were correct to bet. If he raises the river big you gotta put him on a queen or better, knowing he'd be hard pressed to bet into you out of position with a bluff (cause he can't be certain you won't re raise with a queen). and if his river bet plus your bet is less than 100 dollars you could for sure call regardless.

Scenario 3: He has a weaker K.

he can't re re raise not knowing you don't have a queen but again I figure he is raising with a hand like this or a bluff not a queen. and you would be correct to bet because you have the best hand, and he'd be hard pressed to put a big bet in on the river i think to.

I think in all cases you induce a call on the turn and a check on the river, but you won't bet the river its just a cheaper showdown.


I guess it comes down to if hes a spewtard then hes a donk, and its a scarier board for that type of player if he doesn't have a queen and you play it with controled aggression.


I'll have to look for this type of situation in the future and make sure im not betting to much here.



I just think a bet on the turn lets you control the pot if he has a queen

syphilaids

Yes I meant check the turn bet the river.

There's no reason for him not to raise. He saw me bet the flop and turn, he's gotta give me credit for something. Once he hits trips I can't see him NOT raising. He MAY go flat/check, but there really is no reason for him to do so. This would be the opposite of spewing.

True.

If he's a spewtard, which we labeled him for now, he sure can C/R with a K thinking I was barrelling nothing. Although its unlikely, We can't take it out of his arsenal. Of course he's not likely betting the river here, he also may or may not call. But really, If I throw $100 on the turn, he's probably in the mindset of "either I ship, or I fold" knowing he has to face a big bet on the river. It's really hard for me to call a ship although possible, and it's not profitable if he folds.

I really really think this is uncommon due to the evidence stated above.

It's very hard to control aggression..... Controlling the pot here for me is to check the turn, and value bet a checked river, or flat his bet.

I just don't see how this is possible. In the one scenario where he decides to go flat/check, I still lose the same amount if I go check/call.
Although I get mroe value from the draws/weaker K's, I lost a lot more when He does have a Q. Which leads me to something I forgot to mention.

Scenario 4: I'm allready beaten.
If he has KQ or 77 or something stupid like Q7 (definetely possible since he showed up with Q8, although I'm not counting on him having this)
I'm screwed. I need a river K. Betting into a pot on the turn where I'm way ahead/way behind gets us into a lot of trouble. By checking the turn I can more safely call a bet.

EDIT: darbday, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree. I highly doubt we'll see eye to eye on this.

darbday

naw i don't need to disagree, just to hash it out and learn your thought process....much thx. /end thread.

Meistro

Your range should clobber that board. You checked the turn, which could induce a bluff. How long have you been playing? What is your image? Could he be betting a king for value? How did he look what did he do after he made that bet? What is his flop peel range?

On the turn you are way ahead way behind against hands that made a pair on the flop but it is still expensive to give a free card to a draw. Betting something around 45% of the pot in order to charge the draws and also for value against pairs and fold to a check raise, which is probably three queens.

I guess the main point behind taking the line you did would be to compel your opponent to spazz the river, and the flush draw did miss, so given the line you took a call sounds reasonable and you are a lot stronger than the hand you have represented. C-betting 4 way shows alot more strength than c-betting heads up but it is also fairly unlikely he called the flop with a queen and even more unlikely you were out flopped.

So in conclusion, I guess nice hand, and snap call the river.