QJo on the very first hand...

MCflip73 · May 14,2008, 03:50 PM

Low limit home cash game…, approx 12 people with buy-in @ $20 a piece…, very first hand with blinds at $0.25/$0.50…., person UTG raises to $2.00, few callers - MP, LP, SB and BB. Pot is now $10.00.

Flop comes Q-7-4 with 2 hearts…., SB and BB checks to the raiser. UTG c-bets for $5.00. MP ponders for a bit and goes over the top and shoves it all-in. LP has nothing and so folds. SB contemplates for awhile and calls. You are in the BB with QJo. You glance over at the original raiser and noticed that UTG doesn’t appear to be too thrilled about getting involved in the pot but nevertheless is getting ready to call the all-in bet which gives you over 4-1 implied odds on your money.

Before making the decision, I put UTG on a solid hand based on player’s tendencies + PF raise + c-bet = a good descent hand. Maybe mid (likely) to high (unlikely) PP or possibly even top pair on the flop that beats your kicker (possible but unlikely based on current situation). Both MP and/or SB could also be ahead here perhaps hitting their two pairs on the board (again possible but unlikely based on the current situation) but one or even both could also be semi-bluffing here with their big straight/flush draws (likely based on past dealings).

So having said that, what would you normally put these people on?!?! And would you think that your top pair with mid kicker in this scenario be any good here?!?! Would you simply call the all-in based on pot-odds/implied odds alone regardless of whether you think you are behind or not?!?!?

Farough · May 14,2008, 04:08 PM

I would think I was behind with this much action. This is the same set up as the cash games I play, and most people would call all-in with the flush draw sadly. But theres no way you can make that call.

WaterLooser · May 14,2008, 04:11 PM

44? 77? With only $2 invested I probably fold here. You lose to AQ, KQ, QQ too.

I probably fold, but I usually don't like getting involved in big pots without super hands.

pkrfce9 · May 14,2008, 04:35 PM

fold pre-flop. with a 40BB stack, don't CALL raises without something very good.

Pantsonfire · May 15,2008, 09:26 AM

Being to the right of the raiser, you have the effective button. And in this case, you are being given a ton of information and all of it says fold.

You are not beating much, only a flush draw, QT or 88-JJ. And of those hands, I only really see a flush draw with a pair being involved here (except maybe for SB who has pretty good odds with the nut flush draw). Against most other hands you have 2 Q outs (except against AQ, KQ), 3 J outs (or maybe 2 if you don't have the Jh) and against a set, you are toast.

Look at this another way. Your hand is going to end up at the river being a pair of queens with a J kicker about 85% of the time. And the board can end up with a K or A or heart coming up, so how does your hand expect to do against 3 opponents who are showing strength?

As for the odds, you have no implied odds and if we assume raiser is going to call behind you, then your effective calling odds are 70:20 or 3.5 to 1. You need to have 22.2% equity in this pot.

westside8 · May 15,2008, 09:35 AM

Given your description, I'm assuming everyone bought in for $20 as you did not note otherwise...and since you said a player push all-in and was called, and you are facing an all-in yourself, how is there implied odd in this situation?

Pinhead · May 15,2008, 10:42 AM

Seriously, find a better game. Maybe flipping a coin? I hear that can be fun, and that's basically all you're doing playing with 40BB.

As pkrfce mentioned you shouldn't be calling this PF, QJo is trash so what are you hoping to hit here? I guess if you want to call off all your money in at least a 3 way pot go nuts, but there are no odds of any kind that justify it. Maybe if both other players showed you small flush draws, you could call but that's about it.

m_dolens · May 15,2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCflip73

Low limit home cash game…, approx 12 people with buy-in @ $20 a piece…, very first hand with blinds at $0.25/$0.50…., person UTG raises to $2.00, few callers - MP, LP, SB and BB. Pot is now $10.00.

okay, so UTG raises and there's three callers. yeah, you are in the BB but QJ in this scenario is easily dominated. i fold (especially considering this is the first hand played) and wait for a better situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCflip73

Flop comes Q-7-4 with 2 hearts…., SB and BB checks to the raiser. UTG c-bets for $5.00. MP ponders for a bit and goes over the top and shoves it all-in. LP has nothing and so folds. SB contemplates for awhile and calls. You are in the BB with QJo.

okay, so you decide to call anyway since you are getting good odds (which, imho, is greatly overused as an excuse to call with not good cards). original raiser bets half the pot. first caller thinks and goes all in. you have top pair, so so kicker. in all likelihood you're dominated. easy fold (especially considering this is the first hand played).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCflip73

You glance over at the original raiser and noticed that UTG doesn’t appear to be too thrilled about getting involved in the pot but nevertheless is getting ready to call the all-in bet which gives you over 4-1 implied odds on your money.

okay, so you're facing a bet and an all in raise. yeah you're getting decent odds on the call, but pot odds do not win a hand - the best hand wins the hand. you have top pair and decent kicker, but facing that much action you have to assume you're behind (or they're donks and you'll find out once they flip over crap and you'll be free to steal money from them later on in better situations). also, this is the first hand played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCflip73

Before making the decision, I put UTG on a solid hand based on player’s tendencies + PF raise + c-bet = a good descent hand. Maybe mid (likely) to high (unlikely) PP or possibly even top pair on the flop that beats your kicker (possible but unlikely based on current situation). Both MP and/or SB could also be ahead here perhaps hitting their two pairs on the board (again possible but unlikely based on the current situation) but one or even both could also be semi-bluffing here with their big straight/flush draws (likely based on past dealings).

okay, so you've considered pot odds, and you've considered reads. however, this is the first hand played. what are these reads based on exactly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCflip73

So having said that, what would you normally put these people on?!?! And would you think that your top pair with mid kicker in this scenario be any good here?!?! Would you simply call the all-in based on pot-odds/implied odds alone regardless of whether you think you are behind or not?!?!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCflip73

what do i put them on? it's the first hand, i have no idea because it's impossible to have a read yet. is my top pair okay kicker good against a bet and a raise all in? of course not (as far as one should be able to tell on the first hand). calling merely because you have the pot odds even if you "know" you're behind? why would i do that? if i'm behind and have significant outs maybe, but in this specific hand you are mostly likely dominated.

there is a reoccurring theme here if you haven't noticed it. IT'S THE FIRST HAND OF PLAY. you don't have a monster; you don't even have a great hand; you don't have any reads; you don't have any fold equity; you don't have any implied odds (you're facing all ins). so what is it you have exactly? pot odds to call with a hand that is most likely not going to win.

my opinion: easy fold. other's opinion: "i call every time i have pot odds even with the worst hand. easy push/call." i'll leave the choice to you.

MCflip73 · May 15,2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantsonfire

Being to the right of the raiser, you have the effective button. And in this case, you are being given a ton of information and all of it says fold.

You are not beating much, only a flush draw, QT or 88-JJ. And of those hands, I only really see a flush draw with a pair being involved here (except maybe for SB who has pretty good odds with the nut flush draw). Against most other hands you have 2 Q outs (except against AQ, KQ), 3 J outs (or maybe 2 if you don't have the Jh) and against a set, you are toast.

Look at this another way. Your hand is going to end up at the river being a pair of queens with a J kicker about 85% of the time. And the board can end up with a K or A or heart coming up, so how does your hand expect to do against 3 opponents who are showing strength?

As for the odds, you have no implied odds and if we assume raiser is going to call behind you, then your effective calling odds are 70:20 or 3.5 to 1. You need to have 22.2% equity in this pot.

Great info…, I really appreciate it…,

Just FYI…, when the action came around to me, my initial instinct and gut feeling is to fold the hand and be done with it as well. You’re definitely right in this case, I figured that I am not beating much here…, I already put UTG on a good solid PP, MP on a flush draw and with the SB getting involved in this, he probably called the initial PF raise of $1.50 due to pot odds and got lucky with atleast two pairs on the flop.

All this time, I never once considered folding this hand PF (and maybe I should next time) and called the initial PF raise as well based on pot odds hoping to get lucky. Long term, I would fold this hand 90% of the time after getting this much action on the flop so why the heck did I called the all-in bet…, I don’t really know (I guess I am and will still be an amateur). In retrospect, I also relied heavily on my reads of the other players, which I figured to be 2/3 accurate at that point, and knowing their tendencies, I was only really worried about being behind to SB position.

As it turns out, I got extremely lucky on my reads of both UTG and MP…, UTG calls and shows pocket 10s, MP shows the nut flush draw and SB (who I was concerned the most) shows top pair with the low kicker which makes my top pair mid kicker the best hand possible. The turn and river was no help to any of the players and so I say…, “Pheeewww, I got lucky again!” I really don’t know if I can make this read consistently day-in day-out and so that’s why I’m folding this hand 90% of the time - that is the correct move here regardless of the end results.

Pantsonfire · May 15,2008, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCflip73

As it turns out, I got extremely lucky on my reads of both UTG and MP…, UTG calls and shows pocket 10s, MP shows the nut flush draw and SB (who I was concerned the most) shows top pair with the low kicker which makes my top pair mid kicker the best hand possible. The turn and river was no help to any of the players and so I say…, “Pheeewww, I got lucky again!” I really don’t know if I can make this read consistently day-in day-out and so that’s why I’m folding this hand 90% of the time - that is the correct move here regardless of the end results.

I identified three hands you could beat, a mid pp, Q with lower kicker and a flush draw without a pair. For each of your three opponents to have one of these hands is a fairly long shot. Wow, yes, I'd say you did get lucky.

I don't mind the pf call so much since these guys are obviously on the loose side. But when you do call with a hand like QJo, keep in mind what your goal is (i.e. what kind of flop you want to see). Most of the time, your goal is not to hit top pair and then take 40BBs to the felt against multiple opponents.

ReefAquarium · May 16,2008, 03:03 PM

After the hand offer to let the other players buy in for $100 or more.