blackmagicz

So to add to the "Do you ever fold AA preflop", "Do you ever fold KK preflop", I am now adding "Do you ever fold QQ"

Yesterday at Fallsview I think I made a fundamental mistake in the 5/10 game. Here is the setup:


Basically they are all regulars and I am the noob...obviously I get poked and prodded as they try to extract information about my game. I 3 barrel bluff with K high and get called by A2 after A is checked on the flop and I lead on the turn and get called. Board pairs on the river and I fire out again and villian says "donation" and flips over A2. Obviously you are good...LOL

Anyway I pick up QQ in SB in this hand.

MP - young asian guy..haven't really seen him get out of line but he has made some tough folds

UTG - older man who wears sunglasses thinks he knows a lot about the game, a regular chatterbox about strategy and the correct way to play a hand....


Action:

UTG raises to 30, MP makes it 90. We all have effective stacks of 700...I call the 90 after thinking a while....I am putting villian on JJ-KK-AA figuring I need to hit a 2 outer to win this hand.

Flop comes 10 high rainbow. Now here is my dilemma:

1. If villian checks he has a monster (set etc)
2. If villian value bets most likely KK or AA
3. If villian shoves most likely JJ or bluff

In otherwords my read will change based on his action but the 3 bet preflop plays like a big pair (typical fallsview betting)

Now with this information and a 10 high flop what are we doing And if my reads are really spot on do I call for set mining value and muck depending on action if I don't hit a Q...or do I just fold preflop and save myself the trouble...

pokerJAH

since you saw the flop, I am coming out here with a bet. Likely $150-175 range. If I get re-raised, then I have a tough decision to make for the rest of my chips. I rather have to make a tough decision now on the flop than later on the turn or the river.

If you check the flop, you are likely going to see a bet from one of these two players and then if you just call, you are most definitely facing two more bets on the turn and river.

UTG probably doesn't have AA or KK or they likely would have popped it pre-flop when MP made it $90. Any value in popping it pre-flop to see where you stand at that point?

For a 9 x BB pre-flop raise, I am NEVER folding QQ. If you think your QQ are behind based on the 3 bet, then a check may be in order and likely followed by a quick fold.

blackmagicz

Yeah so this was the action:

After I complete for 90, UTG folds and we are just heads up. Flop comes 10 7 2 rainbow...I check and he leads for pot sized bet. I don't think he is commited with that bet, so I go into the tank and check raise him 2.5X, trying to rep a set of 10s, knowing very well I am behind and the only way I can win is to do this.

He sits there for 5 minutes tanking and he asks me if I have a set of 10s, I replay "I did announce I needed to hit a 2 outer before I called your bet because I gave you credit for KK"

The look on his face is priceless because I guess he has never laid down an overpair before.

Anyways, long story short he counts out his chips and says he is commited and puts me all in for another 75 bucks more....I call and he flips over AA and I lose.

GG me....

Things learned this week @ FV

1. I am a donkey for trying to rep a hand where clearly the villian is never folding
2. I should be folding QQ to a pot size bet on the flop or preflop.
3. If I am stupid enough to call the bet knowing what villian has, at least bet the flop.

All dually noted

schabs

OK, what are your objectives preflop with QQ when your puttin this guy on a monster hand already. If you flop a Q, praise the lord and find the best way to extract money, thats a no doubter, flop is 10 high rainbow, thats still a good flop for you. If I was you, I would've either mucked it preflop, or went all the way with it. How many hands beat you.....KK, AA, maybe even a set of 10s...

__________________
Good poker players win the battle of mistakes...

syphilaids

MP is 3betting a solid regular who is UTG. You ahve to give him credit for a hand. Like you said, JJ-AA are likely, maybe AK to isolate? Could he do that with AQ against an UTG raise? Probably not, but I dont know how the action has been. There are 12 ways to make KK-AA, which we are way behind, 16 ways to make AK which we are flipping, and 6 ways to make JJ. So out of those 34 hands we are putting him on, We are only way ahead of 6 of them, JJ.

Against an UTG raise and a 3bet and being out of position, I'd probably fold unless I think UTG won't shove. I'd then call in hopes UTG just smooth calls, then try to flop a set or hope for a flop like 9TJ.
Personally, at a full ring table I dont like to get too involved in big pots with only QQ ESPECIALLY out of position. Most of the time I'd let it go before the flop.

In your situation, when the flop comes out rags, You can make a probe size bet in hopes they fold, or check/fold. If he pops you you're only beating a bluff. I think you have to give villian credit to hero as well, as hero called a 3bet oop. He knows you have a strong hand. Tough spot, but id probably just fold to his bet. I doubt he's amking that pot-sized bet with air, so you know you're probably behind.

pokerJAH

my first reaction to reading the original post was that maybe you were playing scared as why would you not call $90 pre-flop with queens and be worried when a 10 high flop comes? Obviously with a $600 check-raise on the flop, this is not the case.

This is one thing I have learned about my game recently. I can easily make a 50xBB bluff in 1/2 but can't pull the trigger in 2/5+ so I try to stick with 1/2 these days because I feel I can play this game with a lot more confidence and effectively.

#1 betting into a player who you know won't fold when you feel you are behind is a car wreck;

#2 I would likely agree with you post flop but not pre-flop. As stated earlier, I will see any flop for 9 x BB with QQ. Especially when the stacks are this deep. Otherwise, what hands are you playing when the pre-flop action is $90+? If you are playing 1/2 and the pre-flop raise is $20, are you calling with suited connectors, A+ suited, small pairs? If so, maybe this is playing a little scared at these limits?

#3 I don't think the hand would have played out any differently, not unless when you raise on the flop, you can get away from the hand when he comes over the top. If so, you would save yourself some money starting the action.

As you know, I'm not really a 5/10NL player so maybe some other 5/10 players can provide more insight.

MickeyHoldem

Interesting how we went from here...
to here...
but that's another story!

How wide a 3-betting range does MP have to have for you to profit here out of position? If he (as you say) hasn't gotten "out of line", you should fold! Don't set-mine with royalty... Leave that to the peasants!

__________________
-- Michael
Luck is just probability taken personally!

pokerJAH

IMO, you don't make your money in NL being way ahead of a player pre-flop, you make your money being way ahead on the flop and later streets. Biggest problem with this hand was being out of position, as others have mentioned.

syphilaids

Like I said, You can call to set mine or fold. You're going to flop a set 1 in 8 times. You're getting 90:745 - your stack after the call + 135 in pot, which is a little more than 1:8, so you do have the odds, and even better if UTG calls. However, you have to stack off for it to be +EV.

Like you said, The biggest problem is you're out of position, so you have no idea where UTG stands. I take it everyone agrees that raising is bad here....
SO...If you call and UTG raises, you know you have to fold.
You have reversed implied odds all over the place if you don't flop a set.

imo QQ is highly overrated in deep stack cash games. Against 3 bets OOP, just set mine or give it up. I have learned from experience and several BI's later to fold preflop, as I'm the type of player that assumes villian is bluffing and can't fold overpairs.

Ok so I assumed he was solid. But based on his post hero thinks he is the fish at the table....

blackmagicz

Yeah I guess what I meant by the regulars were prodding me like a noob was basically because they rarely see me play at FV and because I wasn't sitting around like a calling station and chatting it up about how good my farm is doing out in St. Catherines they figured they could walk all over me.

In the end I guess my play was a little over aggro for the FV game as UTG folds once I call and MP is never folding any flop it seems.

The only reason I contemplated folding preflop was because I knew the 3-bet from MP was either JJ KK AA and that is any fallsview player 90% of the time. The bet sizing really gives it away for me every time. Same thing goes for a min-raise....same story.

Ah well....in the end I learned another element of the game by paying for it. I call this lesson "you know too much but you are too stubborn"

kk_rush

Here are my thoughts on the hand....feel free to agree or disagree (that's really the point of this whole discussion).

I think the biggest lesson here is to "plan your hand". Here is a recap of your action:

"UTG raises to 30, MP makes it 90. We all have effective stacks of 700...I call the 90 after thinking a while....I am putting villian on JJ-KK-AA figuring I need to hit a 2 outer to win this hand.

After I complete for 90, UTG folds and we are just heads up. Flop comes 10 7 2 rainbow...I check and he leads for pot sized bet. I don't think he is commited with that bet, so I go into the tank and check raise him 2.5X, trying to rep a set of 10s, knowing very well I am behind and the only way I can win is to do this."

The effective stacks are 700 so I'll assume everyone has that amount to make this easier. You have a UTG raise of 30 followed by an MP re-raise of 90. Adding the blinds to this makes the current pot size 135.

By calling this raise (which I think is correct with QQ), you have put in a little more than 10% of your stack. You are not committed to this pot yet, however, with 10% of your stack in the pot, you need to have a commitment plan in place. You have assigned him a range of AA-JJ. I would probably add AK to the mix as well...but you were the one sitting at the table. With your call, the pot is now $215 and you are now out of position.

Now you have the rainbow 10-high flop and you check to the MP guy...and he puts in a pot-sized bet. You mentioned that you didn't think he was committed with that bet.

In fact, he was. He has now voluntarily put in 90 + 215 = $305 dollars out of his original effective stack of $700 (a little over 40%). Anytime someone puts in 1/3 of their effective starting stack, he is committed. In other words, even if he is not aware of it, his actions at this point should be telling you that the rest of his stack is going in the pot.

Now, based on the range you gave him (AA-JJ), you have to fold right here. You can't beat AA or KK, you are tied with QQ (unlikely case here), and you are only beating JJ. With the check-raise play you did, he is committed to calling you based on the size of the pot now and the amount of money he has left.

Hope this makes sense.

blackmagicz

Thanks for the input guys...much appreciated. Always good to get a discussion going on different scenarios too see what others think.

ottawaplayer

Good discussion on how to play this hand... I have never played at FV so I don't know the standard plays... This is probably a mistake on my part, but I have to give MP a bigger range than JJ - AA.

With a hand like this I like to see where I stand... I would probably normally 4 bet pre-flop and slow it down if I am called, as you then have a pretty tight range.

I am also quite fine with the call pre-flop, but then with that board I would lead out with a $180 - $200 bet and then shut it down if I am called or re-raised post-flop.

blackmagicz

Yeah if you ever get a chance to play at fv the players aren't that very creative so when UTG raises and then MP re-raises he really polarizes his hand. The reason for this is most players have no idea what each other is holding so the standard 3-bet is "i want to get more money but i really have no idea if you actually have a strong hand so hopefully this bet will allow to call"