Hero - Text book player, sometimes creative for the most part bets with the nuts. No real theory or poker study behind them, all their experience has come from the table and notes I have given him
Villian - Very creative player, knows the game ok, good technical knowledge of the game and willing to gamble.
So I had this debate with my buddy last night after he told me what happened I think he should not have played the hand this way.
Hero stack - about 130
Villian - About 400-500 (essentially has hero covered by a comfortable amount)
Hero hole cards KQ
Here is the action
1. Hero in late position raises to 30.
2. Villian OOP calls the 30.
Flop
10 6 2 rainbow
Villian checks...hero bets out 40....villian check raises hero all in. Do you make the call?
In this situation Hero made the call with KQ for two reasons:
1. He put villian on air (which he was correct villian had 97 for gutshot)
2. He was short and said he was getting implied odds to draw to overcards
Outcome - villian spikes a pair and wins the hand (plan b as I like to call it)
I said that this is horrible poker as you are playing a cash game and should be picking better spots. I also said the edge was not great enough to call the all in with 2 cards to come as this was not a tourney and the blinds do not escalate and you could save the extra 80-90 bucks for a better hand when you are not essentially making a "hero call"
Thoughts
Last edited by blackmagicz; Nov 27,2008 at 09:12 AM.
Reason: Flop was posted incorrectly...thanks Waterlooser for catching that :)
Flop
10 8 2 rainbow
1. He put villian on air (which he was correct villian had 97 for gutshot)
This would be open-ended no?
As the rest stands, Villain prob put Hero on overs that obv didn't hit on this board. Figured that with this bet (and stack size) could just take it down and go onto the next hand. If called (again stack size prob a factor) he was happy to draw.
Sounds to me like he cont. bet the wrong type of player.
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Homer: Feeling stupid? I know I am!
Implied odds? When he's all-in there are no implied odds. The pot odds are about right for an (over) aggressive call, especially if he assumes (correctly in this case) that Villain has to "hit" to win. Early in the seesion, if you're trying to establish a "gambling" image or just build a stack, I'm okay with it. Moreso if you've got a couple reloads worth of $$$ in your pocket. Hours later, not so much.
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I don't gamble . . . but I will bet.
Hero should definitely have thought a step ahead and if he planned to call an allin bet, he should have pushed himself, and had some fold equity.
If Hero knows villain well enough to believe he is ahead/has odds the requisite % of the time, then the call is ok , i guess. Like if the villain only c/rs allin with draws but check/calls or donks with made hands.
Hero is a 3:1 dog against any pair and Ax air hands by villain. He's a 7:4 favorite against draws without an ace. Crushed against twopair/sets of course.
Pot is offering 3.4:1.
This call is not theoretically very bad.
I strongly disagree! It is in tournaments where you want a bigger edge and can choose to pick better spots because once you're crippled, you cannot rebuy for more chips. In a cash game, you should choose the play that has the highest EV, but many players make the blunder of passing up on +EV opportunities because they want to avoid a so-called "coin-flip" and a possible rebuy.
In this case, hero has to call only $60 more into what will be a pot of ~$265. He is getting great POT odds (not "implied") of 3.4:1 to call. In other words, he only needs 23% equity or chance of winning to make calling correct. Given that the likely range of hands that he put the villain on is "air", he happened to have made the correct equity-maximizing play of calling, even if he doesn't understand what implied odds are or the poker theory for maximizing equity. My question now is: do YOU?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmagicz
I said that this is horrible poker as you are playing a cash game and should be picking better spots. I also said the edge was not great enough to call the all in with 2 cards to come as this was not a tourney and the blinds do not escalate and you could save the extra 80-90 bucks for a better hand when you are not essentially making a "hero call"
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May your EV always be positive.
You mentioned that Hero made the call for two reasons, being he put villian on air, and figured he was getting the right odds..
I think however that he may just be trying to justify the fact that he commited himself in the first place. When he made the continuation bet he couldnt have been thinking much at all.. by betting almost half his stack he is essentially advertising that hes willing to commit his stack, but isnt backing it up. Its easy to see its not a value bet when its close to 70% of the pot, looks more like hes trying to cut down odds to me.
As for making the all in call, Its hard to say... There are so many variables considering the size of his remaining stack... is he willing to rebuy chips? How big is the average stack? Can he play comfortable with only 12 blinds remaining? You could argue saying that the size of his stack is irrelevant in a cash game,... but think of how much pressure there is playing with a short stack. It might be better to take the 3.5-1 odds even if you think you twice that to call, assuming you play less than 50% of your A-game when your under pressure.
Personally, I think its best to fold and rebuy enough chips to be an average stack. Otherwise call it a night.
I strongly disagree! It is in tournaments where you want a bigger edge and can choose to pick better spots because once you're crippled, you cannot rebuy for more chips. In a cash game, you should choose the play that has the highest EV, but many players make the blunder of passing up on +EV opportunities because they want to avoid a so-called "coin-flip" and a possible rebuy.
In this case, hero has to call only $60 more into what will be a pot of ~$265. He is getting great POT odds (not "implied") of 3.4:1 to call. In other words, he only needs 23% equity or chance of winning to make calling correct. Given that the likely range of hands that he put the villain on is "air", he happened to have made the correct equity-maximizing play of calling, even if he doesn't understand what implied odds are or the poker theory for maximizing equity. My question now is: do YOU?
The bolded portion is wrong. In cash games you can pass up small edges because the blinds don't increase. In tournaments you cant pass up small edges because you have to stay ahead of the blind increases. I made the switch from playing mtt's professionally to playing full ring cash games professionally and this is one of the fundamentals I had to learn.
Let's break the hand down. First, with a 25BB stack our late position opening range should be 88+ AT+ or something similar. You really should never be opening KQ here. it's not profitable. None of the winning short stackers online would ever be caught opening KQ here. The shorter your stack the tighter your rage has to be.
On the flop we should be open shoving if we think villain has air and we plan to bet because we cant ever fold to a shove getting 3.4 to 1.
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