Limit Hold'em hand...thoughts?

kk_rush · Oct 30,2008, 03:01 PM

I played this hand a few weeks ago at a Casino Brantford 2/5 limit game. I won the hand but.....I'll explain it below and will read what you think.

I was in the SB with 10-4 offsuit. There were 5 limpers when it got to me and I decided to complete the bet. The BB checked. With 7 players, the flop came:

J-8-4 rainbow.

It gave me bottom pair with a backdoor straight draw...not much of anything. I checked with really the intention of folding the hand if any real action occurs. It gets checked around.....turn.....

J-8-4-10.

I checked again. In all honesty, it was an insta-check as my plan beforehand was just to check the turn...I then realized afterward that I had 2 pair. It was checked around to the guy 3 to my right who bet. So the pot was now about 4BB with people to act after me. Given the size of the pot and possibly some bets coming afterwards, I decided to call. Everyone else folded leaving the river heads-up. Here comes the river....

J-8-4-10-4.

I bet out here with the full house but was insta-raised (so quick in fact that the bet had barely left my hand). Ultimately, I just called and he showed the losing straight (9-7 offsuit).

My thoughts with this hand is the river. With the insta-raise, it was telling me that he didn't fear the board being paired. This was a guy who was filling out a ProLine form while playing which indicated (to me anyway) that he may be a tighter player than normal at that game....I don't know. I think I just screwed the river play up...

The_Awesome · Oct 30,2008, 03:27 PM

Yup you left money on the table there. Sometimes you will lose with a boat but the times you win with it will more then make up for it.

BBC Z · Oct 30,2008, 03:27 PM

I like the flop check. I like the turn call.

And yes, on the river you are capping every time. If you think about villans hand, he's not betting when theres a large field on the flop with a set? Only hand he can have is TT in your scenario.

Edit: Oh and move up to Play 5/10 instead of 2/5.

westside8 · Oct 30,2008, 03:30 PM

I would definitely get in a raising war with that hand on the river...if it goes 4/5 bets, then I migh consider seeing it being boat over boat.

Big Mike · Oct 30,2008, 03:37 PM

I like the flop check. I HATE the turn call. That is a must check raise, imo.
Any two broadway cards now have at least a gutshot and possibly a pair - make it incorrect for them to call. 4bet the river every time, but only call a 5bet.

I agree with BBC to move up to 5/10 from 2/5.

And next time, fold T4o in the small blind. It is not +ev. T6o is a call though.

actyper · Oct 30,2008, 03:38 PM

I'd prefer a turn raise in that spot, though a turn bet should have been the first option.

BBC Z · Oct 30,2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

I like the flop check. I HATE the turn call. That is a must check raise, imo.

Wow.. bolding the must.. thats powerful.

The check-raise does nothing more than shut everyone else out of the small pot and force us to play against a hand that might be better than ours.

Big Mike · Oct 30,2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC Z

Wow.. bolding the must.. thats powerful.

The check-raise does nothing more than shut everyone else out of the small pot and force us to play against a hand that might be better than ours.

The check raise gives us the best chance to win the pot with a very vulnerable to pair against a hand that might be better than us but very likely is not.
Check calling is the worst option after c/raising (1st) and betting out (2nd).

This pot is not that small, there are 7 limpers in it.

westside8 · Oct 30,2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mike

The check raise gives us the best chance to win the pot with a very vulnerable to pair against a hand that might be better than us but very likely is not.

If you are implying that the CR could get the player who bet the turn to fold to the CR, or to a single bet on the river, you are sadly mistaken. This hand is most likely going to get to showdown regardless as played, this is just a spot where you are looking to find a play that can maximize your gain when ahead but minimize your loss when behind.

pkrfce9 · Oct 30,2008, 04:05 PM

raise the turn. bet the river. hahahahahaha

Big Mike · Oct 30,2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westside8

If you are implying that the CR could get the player who bet the turn to fold to the CR, or to a single bet on the river, you are sadly mistaken. This hand is most likely going to get to showdown regardless as played, this is just a spot where you are looking to find a play that can maximize your gain when ahead but minimize your loss when behind.

Of course he's not going to fold, unless he has air in which case we'd want him to call. This c/r is for value, meaning we figure to be ahead most of the time. It will also have the added benefit of protecting our hand from any draws out there. Remember that a hand like AT, which may fold to our c/r if it makes them call 2 bets cold but call for one, can catch any 8, J or Ace and beat us.

There ARE times in LHE when you want to minimize your loss when behind, but this is not one of them. You have a good hand but it is vulnerable, put that extra bet in to protect it.

The OP wanted comment on the river - did he put enough bets in. The fact is it doesn't really matter if it's 3 or 4 (maybe 5). It's a difference of one BB. C/raising the turn could be the difference between winning or losing a 4.5 bb pot! And similar situations will come up far more often than having a boat on the river and not knowing what to do with it.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic to anyone, but in order to maximize your profit at a loose game such as this, you really do have to c/r this turn. It's not even close.

JohnnieH · Oct 30,2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mike

I like the flop check. I HATE the turn call. That is a must check raise, imo.

Yeah, but he was behind in the hand:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kk_rush

Ultimately, I just called and he showed the losing straight (9-7 offsuit).

Clearly the action would have been 3 bet.

Big Mike · Oct 30,2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnieH

Yeah, but he was behind in the hand:

Doesn't matter, the correct move is to c/r here. He didn't know he was behind at the time.

This is also why if anyone is starting a thread asking about their play they should leave out results for unbiased opinions.

JohnnieH · Oct 30,2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mike

Doesn't matter, the correct move is to c/r here. He didn't know he was behind at the time.

This is also why if anyone is starting a thread asking about their play they should leave out results for unbiased opinions.

So you c/r and it's 3 bet back to you? You still cap it knowing you're behind?

No you call to hit your 4 outer. Have you played 2/5 at Brantford?

Big Mike · Oct 30,2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnieH

So you c/r and it's 3 bet back to you? You still cap it knowing you're behind?

No you call to hit your 4 outer. Have you played 2/5 at Brantford?

If you c/r and are 3bet you call and just call the river UI (folding the river is an option but only against the most passive and readable of players).
I didn't say to cap the turn. His threebet lets you know you're probably behind. Before that you figured to be good. If you know he has a straight when he bets, you should just fold your two pair, right?

No, i haven't played 2/5 at Brantford, but i have at Niagara and Point Edward. I'm sure it's quite similar, and the c/r is correct everywhere