actyper

I disagree with your intent to c/r this hand. 7 players and a weak 2 pair on a now draw heavy board. Why not bet it out?

Played as is I completely agree that raising is the way to go.

Big Mike

Because betting out will not protect your hand. Any two broadways are going to call thinking they have at least a gutshot and two overs that may be good. The 10 almost has to hit someone so there isn't much chance a bet won't go in on the turn.

Also, by betting, you pretty much have to call a raise, but have no idea if you're ahead. If you check, there's a bet and a raise before it gets back to you, you can pretty safely fold.

Betting out isn't a bad option, btw. I believe it's much better than checking and calling, but slightly worse than c/raising.


btw, are you actyper also on the PSO forums? I thought i recognized that name.

ReefAquarium

The turn is a *clear* CR. Force the field to call 2 Big bets.
Getting re-poped will cost you a big bet, But losing the pot will cost you 5.5 Big bets.

Calling is a huge blunder and the worst advice possible.

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ReefAquarium

Totally wrong thinking.
We want to win this 5.5 big bet pot. Playing passively won't protect our hand. This is a clear check raise situation.

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BBC Z

Holy shit 5 bets is now a big pot? Are you retarded or just mathematically un-inclined?

Edit: I propose this thread is renamed: "Why people will always suck at limit poker".

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Big Mike

5.5 big bets is not a huge pot, but it is worth trying to win. If you are ahead you will also get another bet on the river, more if you improve.

I don't want to insult you, honest - but the difference between being an OK limit hold'em player (quite possibly still a winning player mind you), and an expert who crushes the game is that on this hand the expert makes this c/r.
(ignoring the fact that an expert wouldn't play the hand in the first place, most likely).

And people will suck at limit poker only if they refuse to learn from those with more knowledge/experience. Hopefully at least the OP is learning that there's often a lot more to winning LHE play than capping a boat.

actyper

5.5 bb pot is a nice pot to win in limit.

lunatic

Been a while since I played limit. As played I definitely CR the turn. I will CR the turn there with much less since LP could be betting light after it has been checked twice to him.

If I had not checked the turn, I'm still not a 100% convinced that CR is the best play here. Unless the 2/5 game at Brantford has changed, will anyone bet a draw here? I think if you are still good on this board then it gets checked around again. If you are behind you probably get 3bet. I think I lead out in order to get some money in the pot. I would call a raise but fold if it was more than 1 bet to me.

Raise the river a few times but if he keeps reraising you then you gotta consider a higher boat.

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DrTyore

BBC_Z is right

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moose

DrTyore is wrong. Thanks for the intelligent contribution.

Pot $19 + $5 call = 5:1 for any draw to call, and successively better odds with every call that follows, until finally the guy with 22 decides, what the hell, lets call to hit my 2 outer. Give me a break.

Pot $19 + $10 c/r = 3:1, incorrect for draws to call

There is 5 other people left to call in this pot. Are we going to make it correct or incorrect to call? Are we there to make the other players make the mistakes or not?

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ReefAquarium

BBC Z, You need to review/improve your understanding of limit poker.

There are two kind of difficult points here.

Why we checkraise the turn:

In this situation we risk losing an extra bet checkraising, in return we try to win this pot by offering bad odds to the other players. It's okay to risk losing an extra bet in order to try to win the 5 big bet pot.

We don't open bet the turn because betting doesn't protect our hand, checkraising does. ...

Edit: For those who are new to limit poker "big bet" means the bets on the turn and river. Limit poker talks about pot size in terms of big bets on the turn and the river.

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DrTyore

Okay let's look at it this way...

FACT: 7 players, so we're against 6 other hands
FACT: This is limit 2/5 at BCC
FACT: Current pot size (on turn) is $14
FACT: The dude insta-checked anyways, so this is moot, but....

We have 2 pair (2nd and bottom) on a board of J-8-10-4 (assume rainbow)

Since just betting out would likely cause cancer anyways, we'll look at the debate b/w the two options of c/r and c/call.

Scenario 1: We check / raise

POT: $19 (after his bet)

"Pros"
- Gets us to heads up
- Puts MINIMUM 4 more BB (his call of c/r, and his re-raise on the river* as shown)
- Taking away odds for hands to draw to beat us
"Cons"
- We have a very weak two pair, and our c/r - if called - is putting money in behind a LOT here (7-9, 9-Q, J-8, J-10, and any set that was slowplayed), meaning we have at best 4 outs to these, and at worse 2.
- We're putting in $10 to win $19
- We're chasing out any other callers with a weaker hand

ASIDE:
- We are at least calling the river with two pair, meaning we are risking MINIMUM $15 to win a pot that was $19
- *he may not be re-raising us on the river with a c/r since it screams set to me

Scenario 2: We check / call

POT: $19 (after his bet)

"Pros"
- Only costs us one BB to win 4 BB.
- If even one caller comes along, the pot becomes 6BB
- Minimizes our losses when we are behind drawing to 2-4 outs, since we're still calling the river

"Cons"
- Allows any hands we're beating to draw out on us (10-9, J-9, QK, PP)
- "Only" puts in one BB from the raiser

ASIDE:
- We are risking $10 to win a pot that was $19
- More likely to get the original check raise from him

Now, let's look at how this may have turned out

Scenario 1: Best case scenario

We c/r, getting one call from the raiser with a worse hand and we hold, or we suck out on the river meaning he puts in 4 more bets, +$20.

Scenario 1: Worst case scenario

We c/r, and get re-raised by any hand better than ours. Now with the pot at $40, we've gotta call for 8:1 odds, but we're at best drawing to 4 outs to the river, making us a 9:1 dog, we still have to call river with 2 pair when we are facing a $5 into $50

Summary: In best case scenario, we win $20 more, in worst case scenario, we're putting in $20 behind. --> push

Scenario 2: Best case scenario

We c/c, trying to entice another caller. If we're ahead, we win 2 more BB out of the caller (if we bet the river and he calls). However, if we get even one caller of the remaining 3, we win 2 more bets from them too. Further, if the hand plays out as it did, we may even get 3BB from each of the others.

Scenario 2: Worst case scenario

We c/c/, don't get a caller, and we're behind. We still call the river bet with two pair. We have now spent $10, in an attempt to win what was a $19 pot.

Summary: Best case scenario, we win $20 more (with one caller) with potential for $30 more. Worst case scenario, we lose $10.

And this is why I agree with BBCZ. It's the limit equiv. of big hand / big pot, small hand / small pot. 2nd and bottom pair is shit in a 7 way pot IMO.

Mark

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BBC Z

What's better? a 70% chance to win a 5.5 bet pot or a 50% chance of winning an 12bb pot? because in your scenario, you fight for a 5 bet pot, in my scenario I fight for a 10+ bet pot.

When you checkraise, you ensure that you are playing against the best remaining hand who is likely way ahead or way behind you. When you call, you entice all those other medium one pair hands and overcards to play.

Here's a concept you probably forgot. More players means bigger pots. Also, more players mean you win more with less risk (My way sees two bets go in on the turn/river, with the loss of the extra checkraise bet made up for the 1-2 players who come along for the ride).

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kk_rush

Thanks everybody for the replies. I wasn't expecting this much discussion.

In retrospect after reading the responses, I agree that the turn check/raise is the best move here....and now I feel a bit stupid about not thinking about it at that point in time.

After the J-8-4-10 rainbow board after the turn card, there was $14 in the pot from the 7 limpers. It was checked around to the villian who bets making the pot $19 dollars....so about 4 BB's. If I check-raise now in this spot, it would have folded around to him who, at the least, would have called. It is also possible, since he had the made straight, that he would have re-raised. At this point, I could narrow down his hand range right here. If I put him on the made straight (which I suspect I would have done given the image he had), I was facing a pot now of 19 + 10(my CR) + 5(his call) = $34 or $39 dollars if he re-raised.....so about 7 to 8 BB back to me.

If I put him on the straight, I now know that realistically I have 4 full outs (the other 10's and 4's) so my pot odds would have to be 46/4 or about 11.5 to 1 to call. I would have picked up the extra 3-4 BB on the river via implied odds given his actions on the river with the insta-raising he was doing....since at Brantford there isn't a cap when the pot is heads up.

Yep...I left money on the table here.

moose

Thanks for the analysis (serious) but I fixed your key errors.

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