Limit Holdem Requires no Skill compared to NL-discuss

Thread: Limit Holdem Requires no Skill compared to NL-discuss

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  1. #1
    Full PFC Member SuitedPair's Avatar
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    Limit Holdem Requires no Skill compared to NL-discuss

    So, with the CNE casino open and offering up their parking/freeCNE admission passes for VIP's I thought I would grab my passes before the crowds got too silly. So, went over on Friday and thought I would sit in the 5/10 for a bit while I was there.

    A kid sits down in seat 5, I'm in 3, and he begins to wig out when he realizes he doesn't understand the game he's playing as it isn't No Limit where "I can shove and she just folds, This game has no skill and is just the worse hand winning". So the table explains the game to him and he keeps on bitching the whole time about how the game lacks skill and is shit etc.

    (yes, I will concede limit is the devil, in before Jah)

    However he could not understand that the game just requires some changes in play to adapt to different math and how starting hands change in value especially on a passive table where seven will see a flop with no pre-raising. I made some helpful suggestions to him that he just would not accept so I finally told him to either shut the fuck up and play or just fuck off if he continued to choose not to understand the game. Funnily enough, once a cute girl sat to deal that told him she prefers limit his tune suddenly changed. Very very funny to watch actually.

    I made some arguments that while the game is slower and doesn't have the fear factor of losing your entire stack on one shove that it does require skill and that better players will always beat worse players over the long run. He would have none of it without the hot dealer's input. so wondering what other arguments out there exist for the skill of the game.

    So, question to the world,

    "can the case be made that Limit Poker requires as much, more skill, less skill than NLH"

    lets keep it to skill and leave the excitment/preferences out of it as that is just a strange tangent that can never be resolved.

  2. #2
    PFC Asshole and Commander Hobbes's Avatar
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    As I've said in the past

    Limit is a science (more math based esp on the turn/river) and NL is an art form (play the player).
    Last edited by Hobbes; Aug 05,2013 at 01:17 PM.
    Hobbes
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    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    Meh read The Professor, The Banker and the Suicide King.

    It strange but I prefer limit when I am looking for a low-variance, relaxing, fun night of entertainment and PLO when I am looking for action. NL bores me.
    To Bet or not to Be(t). That is the question. - Billy (Big Slick) Shakespeare
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  4. #4
    $$$ GTA Poker's Avatar
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    didn't read cuz the title is retarded
    $$$

  5. #5
    It's phonetic! DrTyore's Avatar
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    I'll equate it to ice hockey vs ball hockey

    Lots of similar skills required, but very different games.

    Similar: Starting hand requirements, people manipulation skills, board reading and all that poker 101 stuff, tilt control

    Different: Accelerated degree of risk taking tolerance, better odds understandings, balls.

    Mark
    October 27tth, 2014 - Sanity returns to PFC

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    $$$ GTA Poker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTyore View Post
    I'll equate it to ice hockey vs ball hockey

    Lots of similar skills required, but very different games.

    Similar: Starting hand requirements, people manipulation skills, board reading and all that poker 101 stuff, tilt control

    Different: Accelerated degree of risk taking tolerance, better odds understandings, balls.

    Mark
    Ugh, here is the summary:

    Full ring limit: starting hands in relation to position>>>>>>everything else

    Full ring not limit: everything else
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  7. #7
    Accidental Poker Tourist BlondeFish's Avatar
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    Limit heads-up has already been solved, but No Limit has many more betting and other decision points. It will take a couple more years before the best poker bot can beat the most skillful NLHE champion. Then just like online chess and backgammon when they became solved and you can use a program to tell you the best play, online poker will become much less popular.
    Quote Originally Posted by SuitedPair View Post
    "can the case be made that Limit Poker requires as much, more skill, less skill than NLH"
    Last edited by BlondeFish; Aug 05,2013 at 03:41 PM.
    You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeFish View Post
    when they became solved and you can use a program to tell you the best play, online poker will become much less popular.
    How does this program not exist already ? With all of the tracking programs out there, you can use them to determine what hand ranges a player is playing and automatically calculate your equity against that range. Why can't a program use all that and then tell you what the optimal play would be, especially in a cash game.
    In a tournament, the software would have to be more sofisticated to take into account stack sizes, blind levels, payout structure, etc..

  9. #9
    Accidental Poker Tourist BlondeFish's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, such sophisticated (but beatable) poker bots already do exist and are playing online. When a pop-up comes up asking for input while you are playing online, it is one of the counter-measures some sites use to check that you are human instead of a bot.
    Quote Originally Posted by djgolfcan View Post
    How does this program not exist already ?
    You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
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  10. #10
    Full PFC Member SuitedPair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeFish View Post
    Unfortunately, such sophisticated (but beatable) poker bots already do exist and are playing online. When a pop-up comes up asking for input while you are playing online, it is one of the counter-measures some sites use to check that you are human instead of a bot.
    I've never had that.....wonder why obviously not a bot

  11. #11
    Full PFC Member SuitedPair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTA Poker View Post
    didn't read cuz the title is retarded
    Thanks for coming to the Limit forum! you know you love it like a 13 year old boy makes fun of the girl he likes. (just kidding, I know your intentions are true and filled with much hate for the game)

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTyore View Post
    I'll equate it to ice hockey vs ball hockey

    Lots of similar skills required, but very different games.

    Similar: Starting hand requirements, people manipulation skills, board reading and all that poker 101 stuff, tilt control

    Different: Accelerated degree of risk taking tolerance, better odds understandings, balls.

    Mark
    Tilt control, does this also include not berating people? that is half the fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeFish View Post
    Limit heads-up has already been solved, but No Limit has many more betting and other decision points. It will take a couple more years before the best poker bot can beat the most skillful NLHE champion. Then just like online chess and backgammon when they became solved and you can use a program to tell you the best play, online poker will become much less popular.
    Sure solved at the top and when heads up but is it solved well enough that people in the low limit games can make any sort of intimation that the game is stupid and not worth playing? great post by the way.


    So in the end while not the best poker player by a wide margin I took the kid for his whole stack. he kept saying he couldn't leave because he was down and had to make it back. gave him every chance to leave, even suggesting this learning experience would be too costly, but he truly believed his NLH skills would rule the day. that or he couldn't leave while staring at the hot dealer.

    thanks all,

  12. #12
    Accidental Poker Tourist BlondeFish's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by SuitedPair View Post
    couldn't leave while staring at the hot dealer.
    Pics or ....
    You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
    Wayne Gretzky

  13. #13
    Full PFC Member SuitedPair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeFish View Post
    Pics or ....
    If I had taken picks I would have been told to GTFO.

    she was cute, not worth getting tossed from the game though

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