ScoobyD

I hate these spots. Open folded to you in SB. Not fun playing vs either a TAG or LAG in the BB and a LP isn't fantastic either.

Against TAGs I can certainly open fold a bigger range, since postflop can be tough against decent players, but on the upside, a steal may work more often.

LAGs are prone to defend and 3 bet light (as are some TAGs). LP's almost never fold preflop so the steal aspect is fairly ineffective.

That being said, hands like Kx, Qxs, Q7+, Jxs, J8+, etc. should be decent vs. random holdings, but the positional disadvantage is a real pain.

Are there ever justifiable reasons to open limp in SB?

In general, do you find your open raising range to be bigger from the button (vs 2 potential callers but in position), or from the SB (with only 1 person to steal from, but being OOP).

In short, I'm caught between the dilemma of being too passive and giving too many walks, vs getting 3 bet and then missing and playing OOP.

I posted this in Limit, mainly because I'm only talking about these situations in general, not a HU game in particular. As well, there is a big difference between a full (or 6 max) game playing from the SB than playing from the SB (button) in a HU game.

Thoughts?

actyper

Good discussion, because these scenarios come up pretty often. I've been experimenting with both open limping and raising these troubled hands. I have a feeling its a losing spot in either scenario but I can't confirm as I play most of limit without PT compatability.

ScoobyD

Hmm...figured I'd do a little Pokertracker review to see how terrible I'm doing in the blinds. Basically filtered a weaker range of hands (ie a steal range that discounts legitimate hands). K9-, Q9-, J9-, T8-, any 9 through 3.

Then basically looked at my steal from SB for these hands, as well as my defend in BB with these.

Shockingly, my BB/hand was +0.12 from the SB in these spots, and my defend from BB was -0.30 (when I called/raised from BB HU). Both significantly better than folding.

Pretty damn respectable I think, but we all know results don't mean that much.

If anything I wonder now if I really should be opening up my range for both stealing and defending (of course a lot of that is going to depend on WHO you're stealing/defending against).

I'll see if I can find some interesting hands...

ScoobyD

Here's a few recent steal/defends, not that interesting I guess, but IMO we need more common/crap BvB posts since these hands are bread and butter for HU play which happens a lot (in 6 max anyways). Comments welcome.

Hand 1:
Villian is around 50/12/1.3 Not super crazy aggro, but pretty loose and seems like he goes to showdown a lot paying off with some pretty weak holdings. I figure flop peel is pretty standard with overs and BD draws, bluffing/semibluffing into this guy seems a bit wasteful since he's never folding.

POKERSTARS GAME #18057132967: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2008/06/10 - 23:09:26 (ET)
Table 'Indus' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: colincal ($123 in chips)
Seat 2: $4Duke ($92 in chips)
Seat 3: rocketman73 ($78 in chips)
Seat 4: DTDDog ($130.50 in chips)
Seat 5: ScoobyD ($296 in chips)
Seat 6: ZimCity_Slim ($165 in chips)
DTDDog: posts small blind $1
ScoobyD: posts big blind $3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScoobyD [9c Qh]
ZimCity_Slim: folds
colincal: folds
$4Duke: raises $3 to $6
rocketman73: folds
DTDDog: folds
ScoobyD: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [3c 5c Ts]
ScoobyD: checks
$4Duke: bets $3
ScoobyD: calls $3
*** TURN *** [3c 5c Ts] [Ac]
ScoobyD: checks
$4Duke: bets $6
ScoobyD: calls $6
*** RIVER *** [3c 5c Ts Ac] [6c]
ScoobyD: bets $6
$4Duke: calls $6
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ScoobyD: shows [9c Qh] (a flush, Ace high)
$4Duke: mucks hand
ScoobyD collected $41 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $43 | Rake $2
Board [3c 5c Ts Ac 6c]
Seat 1: colincal folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: $4Duke mucked [7h 7c]
Seat 3: rocketman73 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: DTDDog (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: ScoobyD (big blind) showed [9c Qh] and won ($41) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: ZimCity_Slim folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Hand 2: Villian is 70/15/1 over a small number of hands, frequently going to SD (and losing). Seems much more passive postflop than pre.

I never know how to play draws. Sometimes I'll just call the flop (moreso against LAGs that 3 bet any pair, draw, ace relentlessly). I prefer to keep draws cheap vs. LAGs, since I can never seem to actually force a fold, and they almost always will lead into you if you do hit (often 3 betting light on a bigger flush draw, or figuring you for a semibluff). LP's you can sort of bully into at least getting a free turn, TAG's are tougher, and I'm thinking I need to add the peel flop, raise/CR turn as that's much more likely to get a TAG to fold than a flop raise.

I decided to take the free card on the turn, as it changed nothing, and figured naked aces are apt to look me up there. River seems standard mainly cause I can't imagine too many worse hands calling the raise (although this villian might be able to with an underpair or an A).

POKERSTARS GAME #18056376983: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2008/06/10 - 22:30:24 (ET)
Table 'Lucretia' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: jackie21716 ($649.50 in chips)
Seat 2: scottyjr81 ($40 in chips)
Seat 3: Zeweb ($31 in chips)
Seat 4: duffam123 ($140 in chips)
Seat 5: physicsdh2 ($111 in chips)
Seat 6: ScoobyD ($341 in chips)
physicsdh2: posts small blind $1
ScoobyD: posts big blind $3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScoobyD [2h 9h]
jackie21716: folds
scottyjr81: folds
Zeweb: folds
duffam123: folds
physicsdh2: raises $3 to $6
ScoobyD: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [3c Qh 4h]
physicsdh2: bets $3
ScoobyD: raises $3 to $6
physicsdh2: calls $3
*** TURN *** [3c Qh 4h] [3d]
physicsdh2: checks
ScoobyD: checks
*** RIVER *** [3c Qh 4h 3d] [9c]
physicsdh2: bets $6
ScoobyD: calls $6
*** SHOW DOWN ***
physicsdh2: shows [Ad Th] (a pair of Threes)
ScoobyD: shows [2h 9h] (two pair, Nines and Threes)
ScoobyD collected $35 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $36 | Rake $1
Board [3c Qh 4h 3d 9c]
Seat 1: jackie21716 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: scottyjr81 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Zeweb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: duffam123 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: physicsdh2 (small blind) showed [Ad Th] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 6: ScoobyD (big blind) showed [2h 9h] and won ($35) with two pair, Nines and Threes

Hand 3: Villian is 53/13/1.3. Seems fairly spewy bad but not crazy aggro.
I usually don't get too fancy with turn CR's especially with vulnerable top pair hands with draws on the board, but figure I need to mix it in, since I'm often leading the flop regardless (and I feel his peeling range is a lot of gutshots, overs, aces), so I figure if I show weakness on the turn I can get in my CR for value. I just can never find TP folds against spewy players...

POKERSTARS GAME #18057073110: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2008/06/10 - 23:06:14 (ET)
Table 'Eurydome' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Beelzbub03 ($323.50 in chips)
Seat 3: whodey62 ($106 in chips)
Seat 4: sitter72 ($79 in chips)
Seat 6: ScoobyD ($320.50 in chips)
ScoobyD: posts small blind $1
Beelzbub03: posts big blind $3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScoobyD [Jd 9h]
whodey62: folds
sitter72: folds
ScoobyD: raises $3 to $6
Beelzbub03: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [7d 5c 9s]
ScoobyD: bets $3
Beelzbub03: calls $3
*** TURN *** [7d 5c 9s] [3h]
ScoobyD: checks
Beelzbub03: bets $6
ljones7 joins the table at seat #5
ScoobyD: raises $6 to $12
Beelzbub03: raises $6 to $18
ScoobyD: calls $6
*** RIVER *** [7d 5c 9s 3h] [8d]
ScoobyD: checks
Beelzbub03: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ScoobyD: shows [Jd 9h] (a pair of Nines)
Beelzbub03: shows [3c 9c] (two pair, Nines and Threes)
Beelzbub03 collected $52 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $54 | Rake $2
Board [7d 5c 9s 3h 8d]
Seat 2: Beelzbub03 (big blind) showed [3c 9c] and won ($52) with two pair, Nines and Threes
Seat 3: whodey62 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: sitter72 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ScoobyD (small blind) showed [Jd 9h] and lost with a pair of Nines

Hand 4: Villian is a 50/13/0.4 LP calling station fish. He'll go to SD light.

I figure 2nd barrel might fold out the odd naked ace, charge draws , other worse overcards...but probably not against this opponent. When he calls turn he's either got a hand he's showing down (any pair or an A), or he has a draw (which often got there with the 6 hitting), so I throw in the towel...

POKERSTARS GAME #18054474766: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2008/06/10 - 20:50:51 (ET)
Table 'Lucretia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: stan0717 ($157 in chips)
Seat 2: alec309 ($73 in chips)
Seat 3: Boooooty L ($365.50 in chips)
Seat 4: SteadyHands ($130 in chips)
Seat 5: RottenTeeth ($57.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ScoobyD ($267 in chips)
ScoobyD: posts small blind $1
stan0717: posts big blind $3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScoobyD [3d Kc]
alec309: folds
Boooooty L: folds
SteadyHands: folds
RottenTeeth: folds
ScoobyD: raises $3 to $6
stan0717: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [4s 5h Th]
ScoobyD: bets $3
stan0717: calls $3
*** TURN *** [4s 5h Th] [5s]
ScoobyD: bets $6
stan0717: calls $6
*** RIVER *** [4s 5h Th 5s] [6c]
ScoobyD: checks
stan0717: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ScoobyD: shows [3d Kc] (a pair of Fives)
stan0717: shows [3h 3s] (two pair, Fives and Threes)
stan0717 collected $29 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $30 | Rake $1
Board [4s 5h Th 5s 6c]
Seat 1: stan0717 (big blind) showed [3h 3s] and won ($29) with two pair, Fives and Threes
Seat 2: alec309 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Boooooty L folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: SteadyHands folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: RottenTeeth (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ScoobyD (small blind) showed [3d Kc] and lost with a pair of Fives


Hand 5: Villian is 79/6/0.6. Calling station fishy. I can't decide if I should be cutting down my steal range vs these guys (since they can't fold) or if I should just play everything since they're bound to make so many mistakes postflop that I should be able to show a profit...even out of position.

POKERSTARS GAME #18055168084: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2008/06/10 - 21:26:37 (ET)
Table 'Lucretia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: nayrballen6 ($56 in chips)
Seat 2: Wortel2000 ($65 in chips)
Seat 3: rocketman73 ($108 in chips)
Seat 4: SteadyHands ($135.50 in chips)
Seat 5: JB371 ($91 in chips)
Seat 6: ScoobyD ($369.50 in chips)
ScoobyD: posts small blind $1
nayrballen6: posts big blind $3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ScoobyD [Jc 6c]
Wortel2000: folds
rocketman73: folds
SteadyHands: folds
JB371: folds
ScoobyD: raises $3 to $6
nayrballen6: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [6h Qc 2s]
ScoobyD: bets $3
nayrballen6: calls $3
*** TURN *** [6h Qc 2s] [Jh]
ScoobyD: bets $6
nayrballen6: raises $6 to $12
ScoobyD: raises $6 to $18
nayrballen6: calls $6
*** RIVER *** [6h Qc 2s Jh] [3s]
ScoobyD: bets $6
nayrballen6: calls $6
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ScoobyD: shows [Jc 6c] (two pair, Jacks and Sixes)
nayrballen6: mucks hand
ScoobyD collected $64 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $66 | Rake $2
Board [6h Qc 2s Jh 3s]
Seat 1: nayrballen6 (big blind) mucked [Js 8s]
Seat 2: Wortel2000 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: rocketman73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: SteadyHands folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: JB371 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ScoobyD (small blind) showed [Jc 6c] and won ($64) with two pair, Jacks and Sixes