3 bet pot on different textures

Richard~ · Nov 22,2011, 04:29 PM

Cbet or not to cbet? Here's what I did in two spots of my evening session. how would you play it and why (assuming you 3 bet)?

PokerStars Game #70977060413: Tournament #548010512, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2011/11/22 23:17:01 CET [2011/11/22 17:17:01 ET]
Table '548010512 367' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Akromax (73011 in chips)
Seat 2: cluzzi (29794 in chips)
Seat 4: MHABER3636 (22196 in chips)
Seat 5: as4trebol (7073 in chips)
Seat 6: IRichardI (37366 in chips)
Seat 7: Kybard1 (11084 in chips)
Seat 8: kamilpudelko (15454 in chips)
Seat 9: wizowizo (24560 in chips)
Akromax: posts the ante 50
cluzzi: posts the ante 50
MHABER3636: posts the ante 50
as4trebol: posts the ante 50
IRichardI: posts the ante 50
Kybard1: posts the ante 50
kamilpudelko: posts the ante 50
wizowizo: posts the ante 50
kamilpudelko: posts small blind 300
wizowizo: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IRichardI [

]
Akromax: raises 600 to 1200
cluzzi: folds
MHABER3636: folds
OshriAK is connected
as4trebol: folds
IRichardI: raises 2200 to 3400
Kybard1: folds
kamilpudelko: folds
wizowizo: folds
Akromax: calls 2200
*** FLOP *** [

]
Akromax: checks
IRichardI: bets 4400
Akromax: folds
Uncalled bet (4400) returned to IRichardI
IRichardI collected 8100 from pot
IRichardI: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8100 | Rake 0
Board [Td As 3d]
Seat 1: Akromax folded on the Flop
Seat 2: cluzzi folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: MHABER3636 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: as4trebol folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: IRichardI collected (8100)
Seat 7: Kybard1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: kamilpudelko (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: wizowizo (big blind) folded before Flop

------

PokerStars Game #70977065505: Tournament #548010492, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (500/1000) - 2011/11/22 23:17:07 CET [2011/11/22 17:17:07 ET]
Table '548010492 332' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: veryvital (59916 in chips)
Seat 2: IRichardI (72560 in chips)
Seat 3: pawse1971 (10326 in chips)
Seat 4: edwin658 (28420 in chips)
Seat 5: Psykoman2008 (16136 in chips)
Seat 6: robbiekeegan (26341 in chips)
Seat 7: Siebren-K. (3908 in chips)
Seat 8: myles.180 (36886 in chips)
Seat 9: AchunA (41123 in chips)
veryvital: posts the ante 125
IRichardI: posts the ante 125
pawse1971: posts the ante 125
edwin658: posts the ante 125
Psykoman2008: posts the ante 125
robbiekeegan: posts the ante 125
Siebren-K.: posts the ante 125
myles.180: posts the ante 125
AchunA: posts the ante 125
IRichardI: posts small blind 500
pawse1971: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IRichardI [

]
edwin658: folds
Psykoman2008: folds
robbiekeegan: folds
Siebren-K. has timed out
Siebren-K.: folds
Siebren-K. is sitting out
Siebren-K. has returned
myles.180: calls 1000
AchunA: raises 1950 to 2950
veryvital: folds
IRichardI: raises 5250 to 8200
pawse1971: folds
myles.180: folds
AchunA: calls 5250
*** FLOP *** [

]
IRichardI: checks
AchunA: checks
*** TURN *** [

] [

]
IRichardI: bets 8500
AchunA: calls 8500
*** RIVER *** [

] [

]
IRichardI: checks
AchunA: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IRichardI: shows [

] (a pair of Sevens)
AchunA: shows [

] (a pair of Tens)
AchunA collected 36525 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 36525 | Rake 0
Board [2h Jh 4c 8d 9d]
Seat 1: veryvital (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: IRichardI (small blind) showed [7c 7d] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 3: pawse1971 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: edwin658 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Psykoman2008 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: robbiekeegan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Siebren-K. folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: myles.180 folded before Flop
Seat 9: AchunA showed [Tc Td] and won (36525) with a pair of Tens

jdAA88 · Nov 22,2011, 04:41 PM

don't like your 3bets in both cases, why are we 3betting JTs and basically turning a great flatting hand into a bluff in a pretty perfect spot to flat. Same with 77.

As for the cbets, hand 1 I think I'd prefer checking here and then betting a blank turn if he checks turn to us again. Hand 2 I think we should be cbetting here, and if called trying to shut down and get to showdown cheap, or if the turns an A or K possibly turn our hand into a bluff.

jdAA88 · Nov 22,2011, 04:43 PM

actually the 3b with 77 is fine, didn't realize youre in the SB, my bad

Richard~ · Nov 22,2011, 04:45 PM

My motivation for 3betting is usually the same. I dont trust villain to have a tight enough range in the particular spot so I don't think drawing to a nut hand will get paid of as often as I'd like

Edit: And yes, in position I would definitely flat 77, even more so since it's likely to go multiway

darbday · Nov 22,2011, 06:23 PM

prob just preference but i like flatting jts better there....

on the flop i think you should cbet and semi bluff your pair, if you are check raised your usually never good. I think you get a lot of checks to you on the turn if he flats with a weak ace, a draw or something weird. Just leaves room to see the river for free a lot i think or barrel.

2nd one i don't know if we're calling if re raised pre? Again i don't know enough about 3bets but i think we can cbet and shove turn.....

Vekked · Nov 26,2011, 12:28 PM

yikes, you're making it way hard on yourself by making pretty bad 3-bets in the first place... I would almost never 3-bet in either of those spots. You need to have a POLARIZED 3-betting range, meaning nuts or air literally, 77 and JTs are nearly the definition of in-between hands which you don't want to 3-bet because once it gets to post flop you have weird situations like this where you're not sure if your hand is a value hand or a bluff anymore. If you clean up your 3-bet range and have nuts or air, you're going to have a clearer idea of whether your hand is worth value betting, or if it's bluffing (your value hands are almost always worth value betting, your bluffs will only be worth value betting if you hit like 2 pair + or a sick draw or something).

Anyways I'd check back hand 1 in position, and I think hand 2 is a reasonable line but betting flop is ok too if he's passive. But yea you're making it wayyy tough on yourself, these spots are going to be tough for anyone because there's no logical progression from pre-flop to flop as far as your value and bluff ranges. Merging is not something you want to do pre-flop.

Richard~ · Nov 26,2011, 01:03 PM

Thanks for the input, you've given me a lot to think about. Basically in my mind I turnet both these hands into bluffs preflop because as I said I don't like trying to hit nut hands on flops where my opponents range might be too wide preflop to get me paid off as often as I'd like. Is there merit to this way of thinking? Am I better of doing stuff like bluffing postflop more often rather than 3betting mediocre hands preflop?

darbday · Nov 26,2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

Am I better of doing stuff like bluffing postflop more often rather than 3betting mediocre hands preflop?

i think the point about jts is its better than mediocre...

Vekked · Nov 27,2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

Thanks for the input, you've given me a lot to think about. Basically in my mind I turnet both these hands into bluffs preflop because as I said I don't like trying to hit nut hands on flops where my opponents range might be too wide preflop to get me paid off as often as I'd like. Is there merit to this way of thinking? Am I better of doing stuff like bluffing postflop more often rather than 3betting mediocre hands preflop?

There is merit to that thinking when you're VERY deep. I'm guessing you probably heard someone talk about that in a cash game video or something. Generally I'd say you need to be like 150 or 200BB+ deep for that to be relevant. In MTTs there's not enough of a potential reward because you're not deep enough. You're not the first person to misapply that concept in MTTs so don't worry, I used to think like that myself.

Richard~ · Nov 27,2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vekked

There is merit to that thinking when you're VERY deep. I'm guessing you probably heard someone talk about that in a cash game video or something. Generally I'd say you need to be like 150 or 200BB+ deep for that to be relevant. In MTTs there's not enough of a potential reward because you're not deep enough. You're not the first person to misapply that concept in MTTs so don't worry, I used to think like that myself.

All of this deepstack and 3betting theory is something I'm selftaught in, I've put a lot of thought into a lot of spots and it just seems to make sense for me this way. The whole low poential reward thing is the reason I'm not trying to setmine much, you seem to be implying the opposite that if we're deeper you're better off not setmining much (I'd do it with 50:1 implied vs a loose range and 3 bet with 20:1 implied vs what I percieve as a potential loose range)

Vekked · Nov 27,2011, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

All of this deepstack and 3betting theory is something I'm selftaught in, I've put a lot of thought into a lot of spots and it just seems to make sense for me this way. The whole low poential reward thing is the reason I'm not trying to setmine much, you seem to be implying the opposite that if we're deeper you're better off not setmining much (I'd do it with 50:1 implied vs a loose range and 3 bet with 20:1 implied vs what I percieve as a potential loose range)

Yea if you're not deep enough to call a certain hand just to setmine you're not going to be deep enough to 3-bet it, you actually need to be even deeper to 3-bet a smaller/mid pair than to flat it. I'm talking VERY deep. Obviously 60-100BB deep you're flatting. Probably even 150-200BB flatting is best most times, but after a certain point 3-betting becomes good because you get so deep that you're never gonna stack someone with a set in a single raised pot.

JTs is a different story, I generally would just never 3-bet it because it's usually smack in the middle of your flatting range ya know?

Richard~ · Nov 27,2011, 06:14 PM

Then the problem is not me 3betting the pairs, then the problem is me merging my preflop range again turning them into bluffs right? I'm better off 3bet bluffing hands without equity and putting the pair in my flatting range?

Possibly 3betting more blockers?

Vekked · Nov 27,2011, 07:59 PM

The problem is 3-betting hands that you're unsure are for value or as a bluff, they're in between, so you don't know whether to value bet or not when you flop 2nd pair because you're not sure where you stand relative to their range. Don't 3-bet hands without equity obv, 72o isn't a sweet 3-betting hand, just choose hands that are more clearly a bluff (if it is a bluff). The type of hand will depend on the situation. Some situations you should 3-bet bluff with blockers when you don't expect to see a flop often. If you expect flats frequently choose hands that flop well, like 65s/76s and such, hands that are just below your cut-off for flatting. 3-bet bluff the best hands in your folding range.

Richard~ · Nov 27,2011, 08:46 PM

Makes sense. I find this interesting as I see many low stakes regs who don't seem to have much of a flatting range at all, usually I just 4bet them though

Richard~ · Nov 28,2011, 05:36 AM

In hand number two, would you like my 3bet more with 108s?