T8urmoney

OK, here's a couple spots I think I barfed the other night, let me have it:

Ok, was crushing my opening table, then I get moved to a new table (knew a few players, definately alot tougher).

First Spot:

Blinds: 500/1000 100a

Seen about a 1/2 orbit, haven't played a hand yet.

BB: Hero 47K (10,10)
Folded to Button 22K (unknown to me, not active that I've seen yet)
Button: raises to 4K
Hero: 3-bet to 10K
Button: takes about 5 seconds, then shoves
Hero: Tanks and calls


Second spot:

Blinds: 1500 / 3000 200a

Button: Hero 28K (AQos)
Folded to MP 30K, known player, fairly tight, hand before this he open raised to 11K. BB has 22K, known aggressive player

MP: raised to 7K
Hero: Calls 7K
BB: shoves
MP: folds
Hero: Tank calls


yes, I play that bad

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betrthanphil

First one I play the exact same. second one I shove on the 7k raiser. Are you really gonna call 7k then fold on a flop leaving you with 21k, 7bb?

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When the money is gone, its time to move on!!

T8urmoney

The AQ was bad....I basically smooth call to enable myself to get away from it (ie. being a pussy that hates AQ).....then call the shove anyhow.

I didn't mind how I played the 10's, was more unsure if anyone finds a fold to the shove there....as I think his range is narrowed by alot when he shoves that spot.

BTW, hands I was against were 1010<QQ and AQ<AK

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windbreaker

Hand 1 - shove pre. 3-bet folding is a huge leak....so not sure why you would ever 3-bet and tank. The 4x raise sizing makes this hand a pretty easy shove. Unless you picked up a raise sizing tell....I don't see any option that's viable. Flatting seems so gross. You're going to have so much money in the pot...with not that much behind....and if you end up folding the best hand postflop...it's a gross mistake. The only other real alternative I see is doing a stop and go...but with a hand as strong as 1010....I prefer the shove.

Hand 2 - shove pre. Seems like MP player has a raise sizing tell. Regardless...you have 9.3x bb's, there's no real option but to shove. The only way you can get away is if you know the MP is tight enough to be open folding hands like 88/AJ/A10/KQs type hands.

I'm just saying this in general...but live players have a poor understanding of equity, stack sizes, and ranges. These two hands seems like a good example of that.

T8urmoney

I think it's safe to say, you can narrow ranges down (in some spots) much better live than online, and comparing them as equal is a mistake, and probably a leak in of itself.

Live players value tourney 'life', more than anything, and will discard equity and other factors to ensure their survival....so I'd agree with most of what you are saying.

With the 10's, my odds to call are obviously good as played (12K call to win 28.5k = 2.4/1). But if my read tells me he has AK+ JJ+, the price doesn't look so good (and this is the range I assigned him when he shoved).

No reads, I'm never folding....but with reads is it not an option?

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windbreaker

I know live and online ranges are not equal. My point is that in general live players don't assign accurately ranges of their opponents even though in most cases it's easier...and in many cases live players don't consider ranges at all...they look at their own cards and go with their gut.

For the 1010 hand. You were getting much better odds than that. The pot should be 22k (button shove) + 10k (your 3 bet size) + 500 (sb) + 800? (antes) = somewhere around 33.3k...depending on antes. With just 12k to call...you're getting 2.775 to 1. Which means you need about 26.5% equity.

Even if we used your 12k call to win 28.5k....you have need 29.6% equity to make the call.

1010 vs the range of JJ+, AKo/AKs has 33.7% equity.

If you knew this.....you would know that you can never 3-bet fold....and be correct. Because your opponent raised 4x preflop and only has 22 bbs total...you need to know that you can never 3-bet fold any of your value hands. It's a huge mistake.

Like in this example, if you 3-bet the minimum to 7k..and he shoved...you would have to call 15k to win about 30.3k. You would need 33.1% equity to call. So folding 1010 to the range JJ+, AK is still a mistake...just a smaller one.

This also assumes that your opponent's range is so narrow that he can show up with hands that dominate you or the one that you flip with. If your opponent can ever show up with 88+/AQ/AJ....etc....it only makes my case better.

When I read the two HH's...it seemed obvious to me that you lost both hands...but it's just coolers. You can't focus on the cooler part....but should consider your decisions in the hand.

T8urmoney

tks, messed up the numbers a bit.....

With those numbers, agree a call.....and I'm was as sure as you can be, that he had AK+, and at least JJ+...he shows up with other hands very seldom (but I've been wrong before obv.)

Coolers indeed...but the ones u lose are usually the ones u remember....and, at the time, I didn't think I played either hand well.

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darbday

yes these are both beyond insta shoves ainec....from there on out theyre coolers.

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I think I'll just get it in bad here and chalk it up to variance.