55 er many options....

darbday · Dec 17,2011, 10:42 AM

can't get converter to work.

Table is fairly new, maybe 30 hands. Ep raiser has certainly become the recognizable weak player, and the button is a decently winning reg, prob close to my skill level likely slightly better.

Previous hand, weaker player opened:

PokerStars Game #72292183964: Tournament #551011085, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2011/12/16 19:16:39 PT [2011/12/16 22:16:39 ET]
Table '551011085 47' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: GOT THE ASIZ (3018 in chips)
Seat 2: FERNANDOGM (4111 in chips)
Seat 3: moisesgosu (893 in chips)
Seat 4: diane1972 (3655 in chips)
Seat 5: yiannis10 (2860 in chips)
Seat 6: mkefun (3681 in chips)
Seat 7: forboon (2919 in chips)
Seat 8: Le_Blem1 (3925 in chips)
Seat 9: ricardão rv (2683 in chips)
GOT THE ASIZ: posts small blind 25
FERNANDOGM: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [9h 3d]
moisesgosu: folds
diane1972: folds
yiannis10: raises 100 to 150
mkefun: folds
forboon: folds
Le_Blem1: folds
ricardão rv: calls 150
GOT THE ASIZ: folds
FERNANDOGM: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [8h 9c Ts]
FERNANDOGM: checks
yiannis10: bets 150
ricardão rv: raises 150 to 300
FERNANDOGM: folds
yiannis10: calls 150
*** TURN *** [8h 9c Ts] [8c]
yiannis10: checks
ricardão rv: bets 483
yiannis10: calls 483
*** RIVER *** [8h 9c Ts 8c] [4h]
yiannis10: checks
ricardão rv: bets 1428
yiannis10: folds
Uncalled bet (1428) returned to ricardão rv
ricardão rv collected 2041 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2041 | Rake 0
Board [8h 9c Ts 8c 4h]
Seat 1: GOT THE ASIZ (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: FERNANDOGM (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: moisesgosu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: diane1972 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: yiannis10 folded on the River
Seat 6: mkefun folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: forboon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Le_Blem1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ricardão rv (button) collected (2041)

So here I'm wondering about my lines, 3bet pre? 4bet bluff shove pre? Check shove this flop with my overcards?

I never believe a button 3bet but squeeze....but I feel like I always jam here and get snapped by nut hands because its early.

I felt like I needed to get it in at any point here but I don't want my turbo play to become spew......

PokerStars Game #72292215610: Tournament #551011085, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2011/12/16 19:17:46 PT [2011/12/16 22:17:46 ET]
Table '551011085 47' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: GOT THE ASIZ (2993 in chips)
Seat 2: FERNANDOGM (3961 in chips)
Seat 3: moisesgosu (893 in chips)
Seat 4: diane1972 (3655 in chips)
Seat 5: yiannis10 (1927 in chips)
Seat 6: mkefun (3681 in chips)
Seat 7: forboon (2919 in chips)
Seat 8: Le_Blem1 (3925 in chips)
Seat 9: ricardão rv (3791 in chips)
FERNANDOGM: posts small blind 25
moisesgosu: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to forboon [Js As]
diane1972: folds
yiannis10: raises 100 to 150
mkefun: folds
forboon: calls 150
Le_Blem1: folds
ricardão rv: folds
GOT THE ASIZ: raises 233 to 383
FERNANDOGM: folds
moisesgosu: folds
yiannis10: calls 233
forboon: calls 233
*** FLOP *** [7h 6h 6d]
yiannis10: checks
forboon: checks
GOT THE ASIZ: bets 712
yiannis10: folds
forboon:

Richard~ · Dec 17,2011, 11:56 AM

there's a decent chance I fold pre and an even bigger chance I fold flop

jdAA88 · Dec 17,2011, 12:41 PM

With his cbet sizing I'm just folding as played. Also his squeeze is super-small which leads me to believe he has a huge hand here. If you think he's light here sometimes I think you could 4b to 890ish and fold to a 5b.

Vekked · Dec 17,2011, 02:15 PM

fold pre but it's close-ish with the fishy player, fold flop super quick. What do you expect to fold when you jam the flop?

darbday · Dec 17,2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vekked

fold pre but it's close-ish with the fishy player, fold flop super quick. What do you expect to fold when you jam the flop?

i expect him to fold sometimes aq ak kq and other suited broadway non hearts seldom some mid pairs....and any other bluffs he 3bet with which I know he isn't that complex but surely he would consider 3betting pre with like t9s and stuff....

i know its thin but i think i rep a really strong mid pair either pre or post

and i have an ace so he has aq ak less? and i don't think he ever squeezes 99 rarely TT and sometimes not even jj (and i have a j).....

stuff like that....?

edit: i guess thats kinda far fetched but hes on the button squeezing me and a fish isn't that kinda far fetched?

betrthanphil · Dec 17,2011, 08:47 PM

fold pre, your trying to be too creative, its early. Do you really want to risk your tourney life here? is this really the spot you want to be picking.
and if you say because you have an A its less likely for him to have one, then his hand becomes mostly pairs imo. If you jammed in this spot 10 times id be shocked if you got a fold 3 times.

darbday · Dec 17,2011, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrthanphil

fold pre, your trying to be too creative, its early. Do you really want to risk your tourney life here? is this really the spot you want to be picking.
and if you say because you have an A its less likely for him to have one, then his hand becomes mostly pairs imo. If you jammed in this spot 10 times id be shocked if you got a fold 3 times.

my other thought is that if i would flat aqo vs some players utg opens then I should be able to flat ajs vs the weakest player on the table.

I guess our 4 bet range vs the squeeze is ako and higher? With the weak players likely dead money and the possibility of the button folding would we fold aqo?

also I don't know if we need him to fold much more than 2 in 10 im guessing tho

betrthanphil · Dec 17,2011, 09:01 PM

meant fold to the 3 bet, obv flatting open raiser. I rarely 4bet pre ante. Prob flat ako here and fold to his cbet.

Vekked · Dec 18,2011, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darbday

i expect him to fold sometimes aq ak kq and other suited broadway non hearts seldom some mid pairs....and any other bluffs he 3bet with which I know he isn't that complex but surely he would consider 3betting pre with like t9s and stuff....

I mean, if you think he has AQ, KQ, other suited broadways, and some suited connectors and stuff in his range obv just cram pre and and pick up the dead money. I think that's a pretty unrealistic range though, and we don't really have any info to suggest he will even 3-bet or squeeze light in this type of spot. Many players just won't 3-bet light pre-antes often at all. If we knew this guy was aggro then a back-raise jam might be OK but without any read it's kinda spew because him being a winning player doesn't indicate much about his range in this spot. On top of that I think that if he does have AK here he's not folding to a jam that much on this board texture, after he puts in nearly 40% of his chips if he's a decent player.

Quote:

i know its thin but i think i rep a really strong mid pair either pre or post

It doesn't really matter what you rep when he's getting odds vs. your range to call with his entire pre-flop value range. Also as far as the range you're repping, a mid pair is the absolute best possible hand you're repping, along with draws, smaller pairs, and other junk.

Quote:

and i have an ace so he has aq ak less? and i don't think he ever squeezes 99 rarely TT and sometimes not even jj (and i have a j).....

If your blockers are relevant post flop, it probably means you made a mistake by not jamming pre-flop. You can't just flat pre and decide later that his range is wide enough that your blockers are going to be relevant to your fold equity now that you didn't consider them earlier. Basically you're going to have more FE pre-flop, and flatting in order to bluff shove flops is usually too fancy and you're going to end up making mistakes.

Vekked · Dec 18,2011, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darbday

my other thought is that if i would flat aqo vs some players utg opens then I should be able to flat ajs vs the weakest player on the table.

I guess our 4 bet range vs the squeeze is ako and higher? With the weak players likely dead money and the possibility of the button folding would we fold aqo?

also I don't know if we need him to fold much more than 2 in 10 im guessing tho

Fwiw I'd only be flatting AQo vs. very weak players EP opens at a full ring table and I would be flatting AJs much much more often. I don't know that you really need to be 4-betting back raising here darb, you don't really have any info to make me think he's getting out of line and exploiting us. You don't need to go crazy any time someone squeezes... some guys just don't 3-bet light.

Also I don't reeeally see why the first hand posted changes your decision making in the 2nd hand, maybe I'm missing something but you might be jumping to conclusions a bit quick based on little info. That 1st hand doesn't show anything particularly fishy, and certainly doesn't indicate that the 3-bettor in the 2nd hand is going to be lighter because of that hand.

windbreaker · Dec 18,2011, 01:25 AM

Calling the 3 bet preflop is fine. He has good relative position (meaning...that most hands goes check to the raiser who bets...and now we act last on the flop).

The 3 bet was relatively small...we have a good direct odds. There's a fish in the pot, we have position on the fish. Our hand is suited and can flop nut draws. Not saying we always get it in...put there's situations that'll be easy to eg. if it button c-bets, fish flats/shoves, then we can shove our nut draw. Offsuit seems like a trivial fold.

As played, flop is a simple check-fold.

Richard~ · Dec 18,2011, 03:18 AM

I don't see the relevence of the first hand either

darbday · Dec 18,2011, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

I don't see the relevence of the first hand either

its an example of weak play, donk call flop, check call turn, and check fold when river bricks.

but really you just have to take my word for it hes but and the button knows it and the buttons knows that I know it.

its not the only hand but i didn't want to put up the whole hand history...but being the previous hand i think its obv relevant

Richard~ · Dec 18,2011, 08:32 AM

he was the preflop raiser, he didn't donk the flop. he probably just had A9 Q10 or something

But I dunno, if you 4bet you're gonna find yourself busting more often than not. Also, if he's good it makes sense for him to squeeze 9s and 10s here for sure

Vekked · Dec 18,2011, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darbday

its an example of weak play, donk call flop, check call turn, and check fold when river bricks.

but really you just have to take my word for it hes but and the button knows it and the buttons knows that I know it.

its not the only hand but i didn't want to put up the whole hand history...but being the previous hand i think its obv relevant

He c-bet and called a min-raise, then c/c and c/f. Plenty of Jx hands could do that reasonably. I'll take your word that he's a fish but I don't think that's a very good hand example :P