critique my hand thought process

trigs · Jan 03,2012, 05:06 PM

very early in a $8K guaranteed micro. no reads on villain as he's been in for less than one orbit. in general, there are some loose passive players looking to see cheap flops.

PokerStars - $2+$0.20|15/30 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
BTN: 1,770.00
SB: 3,390.00
BB: 2,775.00
UTG: 4,032.00
UTG+1: 1,185.00
MP: 2,925.00
Hero (MP+1): 4,175.00
CO: 3,718.00
SB posts SB 15.00
BB posts BB 30.00
Pre Flop: (45.00)
Hero has Kd Jh
3 folds
Hero raises to 90.00
CO calls 90.00
1 fold
SB calls 75.00
BB calls 60.00
Flop: (360.00, 4 players) 6h Kh 3c
SB checks
BB bets 150.00

i'm assuming AK and KK would have reraised preflop instead of calling to see a 4 way flop. KQ is possible and one hand that beats me. a worse K, worse pair or flush draw are also possible as well as 66 or 33 sets. maybe 54s. he is showing a lot of aggression and i'm worried about the other players still in the hand, but i don't think folding is an option yet. Call or raise?

Hero calls 150.00
2 folds
Turn: (660.00, 2 players) 2s
BB checks

luckily the other two fold. i probably would have to fold to a raise. turn is pretty much a blank and changes nothing. BB slows down. i'm still ahead of his range and i don't want to give him a free card. although checking behind to keep the pot small with a medium strength hand can be argued.

Hero bets 420.00
BB calls 420.00
River: (1500.00, 2 players) 8d
BB checks

should i be value betting here? he could be check/calling with a set, but there is a flush draw out still. maybe hoping his weak K holds. i felt that i'm only getting called by hands that would beat me. maybe KJ.

Hero checks
BB shows ?

GTA Poker · Jan 03,2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trigs

very early in a $8K guaranteed micro. no reads on villain as he's been in for less than one orbit. in general, there are some loose passive players looking to see cheap flops.

PokerStars - $2+$0.20|15/30 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 8 players
BTN: 1,770.00
SB: 3,390.00
BB: 2,775.00
UTG: 4,032.00
UTG+1: 1,185.00
MP: 2,925.00
Hero (MP+1): 4,175.00
CO: 3,718.00
SB posts SB 15.00
BB posts BB 30.00
Pre Flop: (45.00)
Hero has Kd Jh
3 folds
Hero raises to 90.00
CO calls 90.00
1 fold
SB calls 75.00
BB calls 60.00
Flop: (360.00, 4 players) 6h Kh 3c
SB checks
BB bets 150.00

i'm assuming AK and KK would have reraised preflop instead of calling to see a 4 way flop. KQ is possible and one hand that beats me. a worse K, worse pair or flush draw are also possible as well as 66 or 33 sets. maybe 54s. he is showing a lot of aggression and i'm worried about the other players still in the hand, but i don't think folding is an option yet. Call or raise?

Hero calls 150.00
2 folds
Turn: (660.00, 2 players) 2s
BB checks

luckily the other two fold. i probably would have to fold to a raise. turn is pretty much a blank and changes nothing. BB slows down. i'm still ahead of his range and i don't want to give him a free card. although checking behind to keep the pot small with a medium strength hand can be argued.

Hero bets 420.00
BB calls 420.00
River: (1500.00, 2 players) 8d
BB checks

should i be value betting here? he could be check/calling with a set, but there is a flush draw out still. maybe hoping his weak K holds. i felt that i'm only getting called by hands that would beat me. maybe KJ.

Hero checks
BB shows ?

How is the turn a blank? Personally, I check behind on the turn to under-rep and for pot control and call or valuebet river...I don't think you get 3 streets of value vs any hand other than (maybe) KT and I think that your line is more exploitable.

betrthanphil · Jan 03,2012, 05:52 PM

what gta said is basically how i feel with a few exceptions. I do agree I prob check turn to under rep my hand while keeping pot small to call a smaller bet on river. With this river and pot being 660 going into river i prob bomb it for 480-560. As played I kind of feel like a stronger hand than yours would play this hand more aggro, so I go for value on river and bet out 600-700.

trigs · Jan 03,2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA Poker

How is the turn a blank? Personally, I check behind on the turn to under-rep and for pot control and call or valuebet river...I don't think you get 3 streets of value vs any hand other than (maybe) KT and I think that your line is more exploitable.

yeah, i was really iffy about the turn bet. i completely understand checking there.

i was wanting to value bet the river. i just couldn't convince myself to do it.

trigs · Jan 03,2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrthanphil

what gta said is basically how i feel with a few exceptions. I do agree I prob check turn to under rep my hand while keeping pot small to call a smaller bet on river. With this river and pot being 660 going into river i prob bomb it for 480-560. As played I kind of feel like a stronger hand than yours would play this hand more aggro, so I go for value on river and bet out 600-700.

thanks for the post btp.

just curious if after checking the flop, are you guys still calling a reasonable river bet even if a heart hits instead?

betrthanphil · Jan 03,2012, 06:03 PM

thats kind of the point in checking turn...you wouldve put 420 in and might not see a showdown. on river he cant really bet too much more than that even if he hits his flush as pot is only 660. however if it just feels wrong ill fold sometimes too haha.

Vekked · Jan 04,2012, 02:12 AM

GTA - how is turn NOT a blank, it's a 2?

You guys are nits, I go for turn and river all day here in a $2 game. I probably go for turn and riv in a $100 game as well. He's in the BB and overcalled a raise/call, his range is really wide here and he's never folding a king and maybe not a 6. Most weak players are leading turn and/or riv if they have us beat.

And yes flop is definitely a flat. Don't raise because other people are left to act and your hand isn't the nuts by any means. I think we're ahead most of the time but we don't want to raise and fold out worse hands with few outs, and anything with significant outs isn't folding regardless.

GTA Poker · Jan 04,2012, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vekked

GTA - how is turn NOT a blank, it's a 2?

You guys are nits, I go for turn and river all day here in a $2 game. I probably go for turn and riv in a $100 game as well. He's in the BB and overcalled a raise/call, his range is really wide here and he's never folding a king and maybe not a 6. Most weak players are leading turn and/or riv if they have us beat.

And yes flop is definitely a flat. Don't raise because other people are left to act and your hand isn't the nuts by any means. I think we're ahead most of the time but we don't want to raise and fold out worse hands with few outs, and anything with significant outs isn't folding regardless.

I don't play mtts but in cash you are never getting 3 streets of value from the hands you mentioned...so checking the turn allows him to bluff the river or call a bet by underrepping the hand. I think getting value on riv vs a worse hand is more realistic than trying to get 3 streets vs what I perceive as a small range for value. IMO betting turn exposes us to hands that have us crushed.

Also, did they eliminate straights in mtts when full tilt went belly-up?

Typing on iPads sucks.

trigs · Jan 04,2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vekked

GTA - how is turn NOT a blank, it's a 2?

You guys are nits, I go for turn and river all day here in a $2 game. I probably go for turn and riv in a $100 game as well. He's in the BB and overcalled a raise/call, his range is really wide here and he's never folding a king and maybe not a 6. Most weak players are leading turn and/or riv if they have us beat.

And yes flop is definitely a flat. Don't raise because other people are left to act and your hand isn't the nuts by any means. I think we're ahead most of the time but we don't want to raise and fold out worse hands with few outs, and anything with significant outs isn't folding regardless.

thanks for the comments vekked.

i do tend to fall on the tighter side, so maybe i should be thinking about getting more value in situations like this.

trigs · Jan 04,2012, 08:54 AM

...here they are in white below.

BB shows Kc8s (Two Pair, Kings and Eights) (Preflop 27%, Flop 14%, Turn 7%)
BB wins 1500.00
Hero mucks KdJh (One Pair, Kings) (Preflop 73%, Flop 86%, Turn 93%)

Vekked · Jan 04,2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA Poker

I don't play mtts but in cash you are never getting 3 streets of value from the hands you mentioned...so checking the turn allows him to bluff the river or call a bet by underrepping the hand. I think getting value on riv vs a worse hand is more realistic than trying to get 3 streets vs what I perceive as a small range for value. IMO betting turn exposes us to hands that have us crushed.

I'd be going for 3-streets vs. a fish here in cash as well, there's just so much value on the turn that we're missing out on with a FD out there and only a very tiny amount of hands that beat us, especially when he's the 3rd flatter. I'd be less likely to go for 3 streets vs. the 1st flatter. I don't know what "exposes us to hands that have us crushed" means really? If he has us crushed on this board we're probably drawing dead and going to lose a bet somewhere regardless. This isn't a board we need to pot control on.

Vekked · Jan 04,2012, 09:15 AM

Sorry this might spoil the results but when you see he shows up with that hand on the river, it makes betting/going for 3 streets even better. The fact that he showed up with a king that weak means that he has at least every better off suit/suited K than that, and like you said KQ is one of the only reasonable K's that has you beat compared to dozens of combinations of worse top pairs that he's just not gonna fold. So yea, think of how the hand plays out vs. his entire range of Kx hands given how wide it is.

GTA Poker · Jan 04,2012, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vekked

I'd be going for 3-streets vs. a fish here in cash as well, there's just so much value on the turn that we're missing out on with a FD out there and only a very tiny amount of hands that beat us, especially when he's the 3rd flatter. I'd be less likely to go for 3 streets vs. the 1st flatter. I don't know what "exposes us to hands that have us crushed" means really? If he has us crushed on this board we're probably drawing dead and going to lose a bet somewhere regardless. This isn't a board we need to pot control on.

I'm never getting 3 streets of value in a live cash game in this spot vs this hand unless the villian is in the bottom 10% of players and inebriated. I realize that this is a $2 MTT so we likely have different frames of reference.

GTA Poker · Jan 04,2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vekked

Sorry this might spoil the results but when you see he shows up with that hand on the river, it makes betting/going for 3 streets even better. The fact that he showed up with a king that weak means that he has at least every better off suit/suited K than that, and like you said KQ is one of the only reasonable K's that has you beat compared to dozens of combinations of worse top pairs that he's just not gonna fold. So yea, think of how the hand plays out vs. his entire range of Kx hands given how wide it is.

What do you do if he bets the river after you bet flop and turn?

Vekked · Jan 04,2012, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTA Poker

What do you do if he bets the river after you bet flop and turn?

Usually call unless the flush got there.