facing a fishy line in a 60 dollar rebuy live

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  1. #1
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    facing a fishy line in a 60 dollar rebuy live

    ii may or may not be too harsh calling it a fishy line but I'll explain my reasoning below. It was a spot from today that left me feeling like i need to work through t. We are about 2.5 hours into the tournament, blinds are 400/800 and we are no were near any bubbles.

    Villain is also pretty unknown to us, quiet younger guy who doesn't seem to have a ton of confidence or prowess in the game, probably not the worst player at the table. Effective stacks are 33k and we start the hand in the BB with villain making it 1600 to go from CO or HJ or something. We look down at our hand and 3bet to 4800 feeling like we don't have to go bigger or smaller than 3x with really anything since stacks are reasonably shallow and we're not too worried about getting set mined or making huge blunder postflop, villain calls.

    Flop is 665dd and we fire 4200 with the reasoning that the board greatly favours our range over villains, in our heads we're really only worried about villain having 67s, 68s and 78dd and maybe 55

    Now the reason Im gonna label it as a fishy line is because he makes it 9100 to go on a board where he's (at least in my head) at a pretty significant range disadvantage.

    My questions is this. given that we believe we have a range advantage and are betting the majority of our range on this flop how do we react to this almost minraise?

    Do we have a shoving range? I kinda believe we do since there are more combos of strong semibluffs compared to pure bluffs or nuts.

    Do we have a flatting range? We probably should have one, not completely sure which hands to put in there besides maybe AA and KK tho, possibly 77

    Do we have a folding range?
    Last edited by Richard~; Dec 05,2017 at 05:39 PM.
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  2. #2
    Forum Troll - Admin Style westside8's Avatar
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    First question is, are you out levelling yourself against this opponent

  3. #3
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    yes considering results but the thought proccess still makes sense, villain doesn't have many nuts unless it's AA,KK or sets where as my range here is strong and no matter if villain is just clicking buttons trying to get folds or is super nutted with this sizing I was not at the time well prepared to deal with it.

    I think it's a very unbalanced play from villain, if it's nuts then he fucks up his calling range, if it's a pure bluff like 79cc or KQ one diamond I don't see it working enough vs my holdings and if it's a strong enough semi bluff to get it in it could make a little bit of sense, if it's a lets see where we're at raise with 33-99 then I'm happy shoving any one diamond type Ax with a kicker larger than 10 trying to produce folds 20+ percent of the time

    So yes I am levling myself, in this particular hand I held the ace of diamonds and from a pure math perspective he's making me call 5k to win 19k so if I start folding a lot then I'll be exploitable, and then there's the questions if I should be trying to have both a shoving range and a calling range or if villain is forcing me to not have a shoving range...which would suck if I percieve a decent amount of FE
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  4. #4
    Forum Troll - Admin Style westside8's Avatar
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    The biggest issue I have is, given the unknown nature of an opponent, is sometimes giving him (or her) too much credit for understanding ranges, bet sizing, etc.

    To answer your questions though. Yes, you should definitely have a range to shove/call/fold. How wide those are, who knows. You are saying you have a range advantage here, but do you? His opening range could have very well hit this flop given it was an open from LP. Depending on player, some can be sticky preflop when after opening in LP, getting positional advantage for the rest of the hand. Also with 33K effective, calling 3.2 into 7.2 isn't terrible depending how comfortable he is playing post flop.

    I'll have more later...

  5. #5
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    i wrote that I'm gonna have to call 5 to win 19 and need to defend a reasonable amount of my range which isn't neccesarily true either if he's effectively threatening much full stack and I'm looking at poor odds for being good when calling off the rest.

    I feel like 665 should be a flop low enough that my range should be superior, 554 could be better since I have some A5s and 443 even more so, 776 would slowly start to get scarier I feel. Ofc if we're taling purely nutted hands villain has me on all of those except maybe 554.

    I agree it makes sense having both a shoving rage and a calling range and fold a number of our weakest hands however it's pretty rough trying to figure out what to put where, If I for some reason 3bet 55 that's probably in my calling range, AA/KK goes in on of these categories, possibly with and without the ace of diamonds goes in different ones... Anytime I want to have two ranges it needs a little bit of thought since both of them need to be justifiable.

    And I don't really need villain to understand ranges or anything, that's the beauty of it, good poker will work as long as I have a balanced strategy and understand my range advantages and disadvantages. When I say that the raise doesn't make sense to me I'm not expecting villain to be sitting there going "oh shit I can't raise any nuts here because then I can't protect my calling range" I'm expecting villain to have way more easy oppertunities where flatting makes more sense, way more combos where raising as a bluff seems juicy and spots where a weak player wants to raise to find out where they are at.

    Ofc this time I ended up shoving AK with the ace of diamonds into 69cc looking foolish but I'm really on the fence between liking that shove and not liking that shove, it depends on how often he would fold 88, how often he's doing this with hands I'm fine going up against such as 78 and QKdd and how often he just has it I'm shoving 29 to win 18 right now or 67 when called and the math of this isn't something I know perfectly.

    I know I do struggle with these spots both online and live and I'm rarely folding QQ plus on deep stacks if faced with a line that I can't work out and it's not too hard to entice my to rebluff spots where I feel a player is repping thinner than what I think makes sense, basically all you need to do to beat me is to have it in spots where it doesn't make sense to me to have it
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  6. #6
    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard~ View Post
    yes considering results but the thought proccess still makes sense, villain doesn't have many nuts unless it's AA,KK or sets where as my range here is strong and no matter if villain is just clicking buttons trying to get folds or is super nutted with this sizing I was not at the time well prepared to deal with it.

    I think it's a very unbalanced play from villain, if it's nuts then he fucks up his calling range
    He basically min raised you. I don't see how he could raise less and get calls. What kind of hand could he put you on that would 3 bet from the BB and then fold to a minraise on a dry board?
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  7. #7
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    you're not wrong but most notably I think Hesp or someone got away with a minbluff in this spot in the main after flatting a 3 bet out of the blinds with K9o and bricking, sometimes people just don't believe

    Most hands I can imagine are hands that are feeling reasonable on that flop but aren't too keen on playing for it all. Or hands that want to set up a good shove size on the turn
    ~Games are lost, games are won you'll find the strength to carry on~

  8. #8
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    Im still curious as to how you guys treat this spot. What would you default to calling folding and shoving here?

    Edit: Also does anyone not Cbet full range on this flop?
    Last edited by Richard~; Dec 09,2017 at 09:14 AM.
    ~Games are lost, games are won you'll find the strength to carry on~

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