so...I checked back a wierd spot

Richard~ · Jul 05,2011, 09:41 AM

Do we like this? I understand a lot can catch up to us and we binked a good turn but I wanted more value

OnGame - 25/50 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: PokerTracker - Online Poker Software, Player Stats Tracking & HUD

CO: 1,400.00
BTN: 1,010.00
SB: 2,525.00
BB: 5,580.00
UTG: 8,835.00
UTG+1: 2,425.00
MP: 2,035.00
Hero (MP+1): 1,350.00
LP: 1,380.00

SB posts SB 25.00, BB posts BB 50.00

Pre Flop: (75.00) Hero has

fold, fold, fold,
Hero raises to 125.00,
fold, fold,
BTN calls 125.00,
SB calls 100.00,
BB calls 75.00

Flop: (500.00, 4 players)

SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: (500.00, 4 players)

SB checks, BB bets 375.00,
Hero calls 375.00, fold,
SB calls 375.00

River: (1625.00, 3 players)

SB checks, BB bets 600.00,
Hero calls 600.00, fold

BB shows

(Two Pair, Aces and Queens)
Hero shows

(Three of a Kind, Aces)
Hero wins 2,825.00

DennisG · Jul 05,2011, 09:58 AM

I don't mind that check at all on the flop. But if we are certain we are ahead, and checking for value (that sounds funny), why aren't we raising the river?

The Highflyer · Jul 05,2011, 10:04 AM

Personally I like a half pot cb here with 4 players to take out or get value from hands like ax, qx, 56 or a flush draw, especially with your stack size and 500 pf in the pot. The way it played out with an A coming on the turn the BB could feel that he is good and you would likely extract the same amount out of him with a turn check and river value. However you do hold a blocker to the nut flush so a flop check is not horrible but I could see a bad beat post in the other thread had a 5,6,heart come on the turn

.

Richard~ · Jul 05,2011, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DennisG

I don't mind that check at all on the flop. But if we are certain we are ahead, and checking for value (that sounds funny), why aren't we raising the river?

I had 200 chips left in my stack and there was still a small chance the other guy would overcall me I guess. Might've missed value

On the flop I'm not confident I'm ahead but I'm confident enough to get my small stack in the middle. If I cbet flop I'm expecting folds from hands as strong as QK given my stack and following from that my percieved open range and cbet bluff frequency into 3 other players.

Also I can check for information in case button bets in position so I can check raise or button bets in position gets a caller and I can again check raise as well as button bets in position gets raised before me and I can fold (also button checks in position and against turn goes bet - raise and then I'll probably still fold) It's in my eyes too late to bet to "see where we're at"

I think that this is a rare line though and I don't see it taken very often so that's why I wanted some input on it

The Highflyer · Jul 05,2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

I think that this is a rare line though and I don't see it taken very often so that's why I wanted some input on it

If you're to take this line I think you should do it with a more comfortable stack as you could have easily gone broke on the hand rather than ship a nice pot regardless. I really don't see too many players folding hands like qx to a cb that is half or less of the pot here, while you protect your hand and get value in the process. If one of the 3 other players made 2 pair, a flush or trips on the turn you would have either been broke or crushed.

jdAA88 · Jul 05,2011, 11:04 AM

I don't mind this at all, wp

T8urmoney · Jul 05,2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdAA88

I don't mind this at all, wp

^^this

Maybe a small cbet on flop, but I think you got max value as played when SB comes along on turn (maybe shove river for the xtra 200, but meh)

DennisG · Jul 05,2011, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

I had 200 chips left in my stack and there was still a small chance the other guy would overcall me I guess. Might've missed value

oops..lol
I haz math skillzz

DennisG · Jul 05,2011, 12:00 PM

Do we ever fold this flop with our stack?

Richard~ · Jul 05,2011, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DennisG

Do we ever fold this flop with our stack?

if we're beat, sure. Probably not when starting with 200 BB's or less though

Edit: And by 200 I probably mean 20, otherwise I might have another small leak in my game <.<

Vekked · Jul 05,2011, 03:34 PM

nh, relatively standard check-back at higher stakes vs. competent players since there's not a ton of worse hands calling once you bet into 3 people on the flop. Vs. weaker players who call pre with a lot of weaker aces than AT a c-bet is def fine since they have a lot more worse hands in their range you can get value from. With the BDNFD checking is def fine though, I would bet without it.

DennisG · Jul 05,2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

if we're beat, sure. Probably not when starting with 200 BB's or less though

Edit: And by 200 I probably mean 20, otherwise I might have another small leak in my game <.<

We started with 26bb, bet 2.5 of them pre...I guess my "shorter" game needs work, because I am not raising preflop here and flopping one of the best possible outcomes (sure there are better..1010x, A10x, AAx...but really) and then deciding I am beat and folding...This early in the tourney I think we are ahead of enough hands that stick around (due to poor players-guess it depends on buy in too though). Again, I don't mind the check, but I am just getting it all in after he bets the 600...or against turn bets. I guess I don't feel like I am opening this, with my stack, and not continuing once I get my flop...again..quite likely something I need to work on.

Vekked · Jul 05,2011, 08:17 PM

I mean if you're not getting the right odds vs. someone's range with your perceived equity then you should always fold even if you started the hand with 12BB, lol. Obv it becomes increasingly less but making your decision before you see action or anything is a mistake. You can decide that your equity is never going to be little enough to fold given a certain flop texture or something, but I think you can find folds under certain circumstances 4-way here.

darbday · Jul 05,2011, 08:53 PM

i think that you are ahead of their flop flatting ranges and behind on their raising ranges.

i also think theres a sklansky ism that shows its a mistake to check here i think because you can lose equity and you need to protect it....might be waaaay off here

but if you are planning on check raising then thats a different story for sure...but just not having 3 guys check that flop through....

but i think if you bet small it will have the same effect plus you get more money in while you are confident you are good.

its mostly you who has me betting flops like this....but i won't check with so many in the pot

that being said and in ref. to vekked's post....what stakes (cause i don't think its good for low to mid at this blind level)?

DennisG · Jul 05,2011, 10:38 PM

Yeah, I can see a spot where I might fold the flop (ie:sb raise, bb all-in), but ok, let's rephrase this....With our stack size...should we be opening pots we don't intend to continue on when we hit? I mean, we have a line in mind, and barring anything out of the ordinary, we should continue telling our story?