Trying to bluff the world class.....

darbday · May 15,2011, 08:25 PM

villain is chiquidealer....i felt like i was getting played back here so i 4 bet bluffed ....not good result......now im wondering if i can call to set mine.....

Poker Stars, $50 + $5 NL Hold'em Tournament, 1,250/2,500 Blinds, 325 Ante, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: 121,810
BTN: 79,100
SB: 31,539
BB: 79,800
UTG: 199,852
UTG+1: 137,720
Yodabatman (UTG+2): 81,497
MP1: 66,198
MP2: 77,848

Pre-Flop: (6,675) T

T

dealt to Yodabatman (UTG+2)
2 folds, Yodabatman raises to 5,625, 2 folds, CO raises to 8,750, 3 folds, Yodabatman raises to 17,500, CO raises to 27,500, Yodabatman

calls

darbday · May 15,2011, 08:26 PM

is that trivial....no wait...thats trivial.....

/thread

Richard~ · May 16,2011, 08:14 AM

10k to win 27,5k + 27,5k + 2,5k + 1,25k + 325*9 immediete + some implied value to 81,5k - 27,5k assuming we win this 12% of the time or however often we flop our set.

so it's 10k to win 61,675 immediate and 54k implied some % of the time where your implied odds are a function of his range and whether or not he bluffs at a random in this spot which I doubt since it would be spewy and borderline bad so for arguments sake say that you'll get like 40 of the 54k on average if you flop your set meaning it's 10k to win 101k meaning you CAN actually call that to setmine profitably which is a bit of a blunder by villain by the looks of it

Not trivial tho...

Edit: Actually given stacks he'll probably ship any flop which might be an argument to expect the full 54k implied fro villain (or close to it if you count redraws). If that's true villain actually fucked up pretty bad here by automatically 5 betting small because everyone and their mom bets small pre these days

darbday · May 16,2011, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard~

If that's true villain actually fucked up pretty bad here by automatically 5 betting small because everyone and their mom bets small pre these days

maybe he did..but he thought i had kk. i folded the flop and he told me he had aces, he was a nice guy. i guess he can min raise like that if he has me on kk qq and thinks im stackin off...

windbreaker · May 16,2011, 10:28 AM

His 3-bet is begging for action.....he usually has it here.

darbday · May 16,2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windbreaker

His 3-bet is begging for action.....he usually has it here.

true

i never saw the sizing i raised his button the last two orbits and he sat on his decisions twice for a moments....then i went to min raise the 3rd time he was on the button but i paused and folded, when i raised the very next hand he did that so....hence...the....spew....

betrthanphil · May 16,2011, 11:35 AM

If your gonna 4 bet you have to know what your going to do to a 5 bet as simple as that. Here if im 4 betting im 6 betting and getting it in. In this spot I wouldve flatted the 3 bet. but if you were in CO and he was after you and this happened Id happily get it in against an aggressive player.
By no means did he make a mistake in his raise, maybe his original 3 bet kinda gives off strength. But i use the min 4 bet or 5 bet all the time with junk. You would be surprised at how often you get folds. If they come back over the top its ok to fold too but the message you are giving is that its not gonna be that easy to 3 bet you to take your chips and you will notice that you dont get 3 bet as often anymore. When you get your 4 or 5 bet called. c bet flop doesnt even have to be big. say your min 4 bet was to like 30k or something making the pot around 60k-65kish. then bet out like 24kish. Its an advanced play but once you start doing it and seeing how effective it can be it becomes second nature. Of couse this result in some tourneys where you bust a little earlier then you like but the ones you dont you will finish higher in the money.
Your looking to hit 1st, 2nd or 3rd money. Perfecting plays like this will help with that. This is very opponent oriented though so you kind of need to be paying attention to the action at your tables to know when its appropriate to pull this off. Thats why I love 6 max so much because spots for these moves occur more frequently.

darbday · May 16,2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrthanphil

If your gonna 4 bet you have to know what your going to do to a 5 bet as simple as that. Here if im 4 betting im 6 betting and getting it in. In this spot I wouldve flatted the 3 bet. but if you were in CO and he was after you and this happened Id happily get it in against an aggressive player.
By no means did he make a mistake in his raise, maybe his original 3 bet kinda gives off strength. But i use the min 4 bet or 5 bet all the time with junk. You would be surprised at how often you get folds. If they come back over the top its ok to fold too but the message you are giving is that its not gonna be that easy to 3 bet you to take your chips and you will notice that you dont get 3 bet as often anymore. When you get your 4 or 5 bet called. c bet flop doesnt even have to be big. say your min 4 bet was to like 30k or something making the pot around 60k-65kish. then bet out like 24kish. Its an advanced play but once you start doing it and seeing how effective it can be it becomes second nature. Of couse this result in some tourneys where you bust a little earlier then you like but the ones you dont you will finish higher in the money.
Your looking to hit 1st, 2nd or 3rd money. Perfecting plays like this will help with that. This is very opponent oriented though so you kind of need to be paying attention to the action at your tables to know when its appropriate to pull this off. Thats why I love 6 max so much because spots for these moves occur more frequently.

winning!

but i wasn't prepared to get it in here...i knew villain had a hand...just thought i could look quite strong here...

betrthanphil · May 16,2011, 11:42 AM

Your play does look strong but when reraised from you open from ep, you have to know that its gonna be tough to get him off his hand, id prefer the flat here and reevaluate the flop. Im not convinced that he had AA here, he couldve but the fact that he would tell you he had AA after playing the hand the way he did is a little suspect

darbday · May 16,2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrthanphil

Your play does look strong but when reraised from you open from ep, you have to know that its gonna be tough to get him off his hand, id prefer the flat here and reevaluate the flop. Im not convinced that he had AA here, he couldve but the fact that he would tell you he had AA after playing the hand the way he did is a little suspect

i think he was be truthful....he played it real straight forward. he had no reason to suspect i wasn't kk+...and he was a very nice dood. he could be bs-ing but being there, i figured it was aces for sure..

Richard~ · May 16,2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrthanphil

By no means did he make a mistake in his raise, maybe his original 3 bet kinda gives off strength. But i use the min 4 bet or 5 bet all the time with junk

I think this is very spewy given stacksize and position. Are you planning to shut down when he calls you OOP? You have less than a pot bet effective left and probably not a whole lot of information on who you're playing against.

If you're shutting down postflop you've helped hands like this to realise their equity and if you're always firing postflop your opponent can setmine profitably vs you. If you 5 bet this small given stacks you leave yourself open, especially when people start merging their setmining range with their monster range

Edit: Ofc it works if you're getting a bunch of folds, but when you start playing against people who aren't monkeylike regs who go into preflop wars but suck postflop and strategywise I'm not so sure

Also, cbet-fold flop? if you can make that profitable then congrats I guess. Chances are it's pure spew from you too often tho as you've given your opponent a million chances to jam it down your throat

betrthanphil · May 16,2011, 02:50 PM

Its easy to criticize this when you havent seen it in action. I had the same doubt as you before. But when you do it youll see how effective it is. and no its not a pot size bet left, why do we need to bet the pot. we wwant to bet low on the flop so that when we have a monster we force them to make a mistake or fold, but also when we have nothing we get away as cheap as possible but more often then not we are taking down a sizable pot as the aggresser. So if you want to tell me how uneffective this is with real experience using it go ahead, id like to see a large sample and not just it being from 5 tourneys. I however can show you a large sample of how effective it actually is(givin my stats). When I get deep I generally finish in the top 4 of a tourney, of course ill have more finishes in the 40-100 range, but playing my old style waiting for my hands but folding hands to a 3 bet that now I may pop in a little 4 bet and cbet the flop with, id finish a lot of times between 10-30. This is just how I generate larger stacks deep in tourneys. Ive heard you asking a lot of the time why can you get deep but not finish off tourneys, well i asked that question too and watched big names like bigdogpckt5s use this strategy and effectively. I called it spewy at first too, but how can you argue with the results he gets. That was the question I asked myself which lead me to be a lot more aggressive in spots where I think its better to be aggressive here then fold. Of course there are gonna be times where you run into the monster of AA etc, but Im willing to take that loss if it means Ill be making it deeper in tourneys more often.
Kind of rambled on here. Hard to put into words I guess. But basically this strategy works for some people, and I find it works for me really well.

actyper · May 16,2011, 05:01 PM

awesome post

darbday · May 16,2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betrthanphil

Its easy to criticize this when you havent seen it in action. I had the same doubt as you before. But when you do it youll see how effective it is. and no its not a pot size bet left, why do we need to bet the pot. we wwant to bet low on the flop so that when we have a monster we force them to make a mistake or fold, but also when we have nothing we get away as cheap as possible but more often then not we are taking down a sizable pot as the aggresser. So if you want to tell me how uneffective this is with real experience using it go ahead, id like to see a large sample and not just it being from 5 tourneys. I however can show you a large sample of how effective it actually is(givin my stats). When I get deep I generally finish in the top 4 of a tourney, of course ill have more finishes in the 40-100 range, but playing my old style waiting for my hands but folding hands to a 3 bet that now I may pop in a little 4 bet and cbet the flop with, id finish a lot of times between 10-30. This is just how I generate larger stacks deep in tourneys. Ive heard you asking a lot of the time why can you get deep but not finish off tourneys, well i asked that question too and watched big names like bigdogpckt5s use this strategy and effectively. I called it spewy at first too, but how can you argue with the results he gets. That was the question I asked myself which lead me to be a lot more aggressive in spots where I think its better to be aggressive here then fold. Of course there are gonna be times where you run into the monster of AA etc, but Im willing to take that loss if it means Ill be making it deeper in tourneys more often.
Kind of rambled on here. Hard to put into words I guess. But basically this strategy works for some people, and I find it works for me really well.

i just thought i was cool cause i 4 bet bluffed him....after that i wasn't really watching the hand....

betrthanphil · May 16,2011, 05:11 PM

Not sure if thats a joke haha. 4 bet bluffing with 1010 should never occur! worse the phili folding qq 3 handed, ok well not that bad