Weird spot from saturday live tourney

Thread: Weird spot from saturday live tourney

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  1. #1
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    Weird spot from saturday live tourney

    Not gonna lie, this one has been bugging me. Lets start with the hand itself and then get into some details and percieved image. I rarely accuse myself of folding too much but this spot could be a blunder.

    blinds are 150/300 and the relevant stacks in the hand is me with roughly 33k, button with about 24k and BB with about 90k.


    EP makes it 750, MP calls, we call from the CO with , button calls, SB calls and BB makes it 6,1k action folds to us and we and the button call

    Flop comes

    villain thinks for a bit then shoves for somewhere around 1,5x pot and both me and button end up folding.

    I think I'm fine with the hand up until the fold. Button has prviously put in a lot of money light and seemed to be wanting to mix it up and get chips in, in an earlier hand he cold called J8 vs a 3 bet from the button or CO or whatever it was...anyway jacks are crushing his range. BB I'd probably describe as a winning live player without too much technical finesse to his game, I believe my jacks pre are still ahead of his range as he may be a bit more linear than what I personally would be in fear of wasting good multiway hands from the BB.

    I remember when he shoved the flop I felt justifiably caught in the middle with the button to act behind me, the flop is quite a bad one to bluff and it also hits buttons range quite well. I hadn't considered shoving flop as an option when I called pre and it caught me offguard a bit. On top of this it's an unusually bad flop for my range which I perceieve as quite thin to arrive to the flop, I doubt I stick pre with 99, definitely not with 88 and I'm never flatting QQ pre in the first place. This means I'm sitting with JJ/1010, a very unlikely 99 but I probably fold that, 4 combos of AQs and possibly possibly AJs but I doubt it.

    With a range this thin, no diamond in my hand, adding a few more draws to villains range (we only need like 37% to call), redraws to a strong hand and little to no faith this particular villain makes a diciplined check fold with many of his AK comobos I think we have to get it in here for a number of reasons. Most likely it's a blunder when you take a thin range to the flop and fold this much of it with redraws even despite a range disadvantage.

    In hindsight I believe we're simply forced to call our JJ combos and possibly 1010 with a diamond, any thoughts on this type of spots? I always argue that ease of decision isn't a factor in whether to call or fold pre but some spots get pretty ugly
    Last edited by Richard~; Oct 01,2017 at 05:36 PM.
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  2. #2
    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    Is it right that BB made it 6100 preflop and you called or is that amount a typo?
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  3. #3
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    no it's correct which it what makes it a super fucked up spot, I started the hand with 110 bigs and called off 20 of them pre, then again I'm not in a position to shove pre for that many bigs but maybe that's a decent play if I believe I'm ahead enough of his range , 4 betting seems iffy as we're folding out most hands we crush and I could not bring myself to fold vs this particular player.

    Not super relevant but two hours earlier at blind level 100/200 (we play two 150/300 levels, one with ante) he made it 2500 over a 600 UTG open and a UTG+1 flat with Q9s from HJ and he just overall seemed like a player who'd overerestimate the power of squeezing, he seemed to have a bit of an ego
    Last edited by Richard~; Oct 02,2017 at 11:29 AM.
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  4. #4
    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    First time around 3 bet.

    Since you flatted the first bet, ok not ever flatting 20% of my stack when it is 6100 the 2nd time around. Jam all day unless you have some crazy read that he makes such a large bet only with qq, KK or aa. Why do you want to see the flop multiway with JJ? Get heads up.

    By flatting twice you wasted two opportunities to put pressure on the other players instead you put all the pressure only on yourself.

    As played I don't think I am ever folding that flop. If you thought you were behind preflop then you never should have called. Flop changes nothing unless you think he had 99 or 88 or AQ. Even then if that was the read then obv jam preflop is best.

    This to me seems to be one of those inflection points where you have the opportunity to double through a big stack or go home.
    Last edited by moose; Oct 03,2017 at 02:32 AM.

  5. #5
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    I'm definitely 3betting pre some %age of the time maybe even most of the time but I'm not convinced it's a must 3bet spot, it's a pretty thin 3bet for value after all if we're always folding to a 4bet and trusting AK to flat along with AQ AJs and 1010-99 so I can see either play being fine, JJ plays decently postflop even 3 or 4 handed, 5 is pushing it a bit tho.

    After looking as some numbers I do agree with shoving pre vs the 3bet, if we add in some combos into his range he's folding to a shove about 66% of the time giving us +9k chips 2/3 of the time and when called we'd need 46% and have about 38. It seems like a fine edge to take to win 9k 66% and lose 8k 33% of the time.

    If I however knew he'd shove too many flops for 1,5x then flatting pre suddenly becomes very attractive, buttons range is essentially just free equity, but that does require a lot of insight into BBs play that I don't neccesarily have

    Overall I do enjoy taking these casino players postflop as often as I can, they tend to be too bluff heavy postflop and spewier than they should be but again, 8k equity is probably an unreasonably amount of value to pick up postflop in this particular spot
    Last edited by Richard~; Oct 03,2017 at 06:56 AM.
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  6. #6
    alces alces moose's Avatar
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    The value in 3 betting the initial 750 raise is it helps you range your opponent better if he 4 bets you. Plus it likely folds out the button leaving you acting last for the rest of the hand, giving you better control of the action.

    I think one of the reasons you folded on the flop is that you weren't acting last and were trapped in the middle not knowing what button would do behind you.
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  7. #7
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    3 bet pre, if not fold to the huge 3 bet. flop easy fold cant beat anything. you block aj, ak isn't going to yolo on that flop. easy fold.
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  8. #8
    What was the buy in for this tourney?
    Is this sort of play seen at the table typical of that tourney?
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  9. #9
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    With all those callers and the weird raise to 6,100 I'm either jamming or folding JJ. What is he raising with? Normally I'd say a range would be AA, KK, QQ or AK (possibly AQ) about 60% or more of the time. I'm way behind most of them and just slightly ahead of AK and AQ. By calling, with all those other potential callers behind, I'm basically set mining with JJ. Without the knowledge of playing with the Guy I'm probably folding JJ because it loses either to the raiser's hand or one of the other hands that called. With 100bb I don't see any reason to jam with JJ either pre or post flop.

  10. #10
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    this was actually a pretty big buyin, something like 800 dollars. The play at the casino is pretty loose and a mix of recreational players and players who thing they are not recreational players, and maybe a handful of actually decent players but those are rare.

    For this hand I'm fine with the flat pre but I did some math and once I get 3 bet to that amount I think I'm not deep enough to justify trying to widen my opponents ranges even tho that's one of my favorite things to do. I think this is an easy jam vs villain if he has even just a handful of Q9s or 88 bluff stuff in there which my read was that he had hence the flat in the first place. If everyone involved had 20k more I would be very happy to flat vs two percieved wider ranges that i'm ahead of since I have a lot of equity vs those hands and also believe myself to have a postflop edge. A good lesson someone told me was not to shy away from difficult spots, strong pros and better players get themselves in tough spots all the time but then make extra money by making correct decisions in those spots.

    As for the last comment even if you're right about those numbers that means he's folding pre 40% of the time that makes a shove a very profitable move. In terms of just pure equities vs the range you suggested which is pretty much a worst case scenario we have about 40% so we do not even need many folds to make it +EV. My decision on the spot was a bit of me failing to realise I'd have to risk my stack in a marginal spot already and me thinking I could make up more equity than I probably could by taking on weaker ranges
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