How do I play this spot?

Thread: How do I play this spot?

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  1. #16
    Forum Troll - Admin Style westside8's Avatar
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    First instinct is stick it in. Think about it and read through thread, limp shoving isn't the worse if you expect him to raise a high % of the time you limp. But I probably would lean towards doing that with Ax type hands instead of your two broadway cards since you now block an ace (maybe not A6-A9, but def A2-A5, AT-AK).

    The lower variance play IMO is just jamming in pre. Unless he's someone that understands shove/fold/call range very well, he's going to be making some mistakes folding hands he shouldn't be. Your shove range realistically should be super wide here as well if you're looking at it from a pure equilibrium perspective.

  2. #17
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    I wouldn't worry about him checking behind if you limp, if that happens you take a flop as a big equity favorite. Personally I'm limping my full range here, that way I get away with playing my J7s and i can easily adjust the hands I jam over a raise depending on how many hands I perceieve villain to be raising vs my limp. As a baseline I'm probably jamming about 3/4 or the hands I can profitably jam pre, call maybe a little bit wider than I can profitably jam and fold the rest, something like that
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  3. #18
    Full PFC Member Irunit4times's Avatar
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    17 bb in the small with kq into an 18 bb stack near the bubble is an instant shove. Several reasons.

    1. If the player is solid and plays to win, doesn't care about squeaking into the money an open 2 or 2.x raise is going to be so exploitable because if I see you playing scared I'm going to 3 bet jam on you with as low as 65 suited and make you call it off. Which most times your not going to and if you do I still have good equity against calling hands.

    Option 2. The only time I'm opening on this player is if I think he is the player listed above and knows to exploit this situation. Therefore I go slightly above standard open size, ex. Your standard open size is 2.2x then I'm opening 2.8x this spot to induce his bluff shoves. This is only a good spot with nutted hands and if you do this with kq suited you now must be prepared to accept the following, you've committed to calling it off and your a. Behind slightly, completely crushed or 60 40 most spots or less.

    So my point is by open jamming sure he may wake up with a calling hand and A3 etc may look good there for bb, it is in fact a fold in this spot on bubble. And if he calls you have great equity to double up which should be the goal here.

    If he also calls it off with 77 and lower he is flipping virtually 5050 for his tournament life and you've made him make that decision not you. And you have good equity to win.

    The goal at bubble is to make the other person make the mistake and if you see someone make a mistake to exploit them in order to chip up. His stack size is the perfect example.

    That said I'm open jamming all nutted hands on him all the way to 10 9 suited as he's more likely folding and every once in a while he's gonna wake up with a nutted hand and you should at least have a decent amount of equity jamming hands like 10 9 s j 10 s etc.

    You will get knocked out time to time, most times you will pick up the blinds and antes and a few times your going to double up. Odds are in your favour to open jam this spot.

  4. #19
    Full PFC Member Irunit4times's Avatar
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    Also third option is to be passive, limp fold to a jam to be less exploitable as your only completing the blind and less value for him to just rip it in. If he checks behind play semi passive out of position unless flopping k high rainbow brick board. Be ready to fold single pairs to 3 bet jamming hands against you or check jam on him when flopping 2 pairs or some sick combo draws. Example flop of 10 j 3 rainbow or 2 flushing to your k or q and backdoor flush draws. Those up down 2 over card and back door second or third nut flush redraw should be check jamming on him on the flop. But once you flat pre and take the passive line be prepared to play passive and fold post flop unless flopping seriously strong hands as the bb can have any 2 cards and single paired hands have very very little equity in this spot against opening and getting jammed on and calling it off.

  5. #20
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    2 or 2.x raise is going to be so exploitable because if I see you playing scared I'm going to 3 bet jam on you with as low as 65 suited and make you call it off.
    I disagree with some of what you just wrote but this part right here, that's the whole argument of raising to induce even though it doens't allow you to play as many hands. It's only going to be exploitable if your opening range is unbalanced, so make sure it's not and you're good.

    And also folding is out of the question, limping and folding to a jam is the most exploitable thing I've heard all day, not only can you now not play J7s in any realistic way so you end up giving him a bunch of walks but you're also folding out a hand with a ton of equity vs villains jamming range, a hand that even dominates a good part of it.

    There is some merit in jamming and hoping to fold out A3o, realistically you're never folding out 44+ unless villain is super terrible so the range you're attmpting to bluff out is basically weak aces and 22-33 which seems extremely thin to me. Again, limping is not the only way to go, but if you do you're not playing passively postflop, if the flop favors your range, most importantly your actual range but also important to consider your percieved range then you do a bunch of betting and double barreling and if you do flop a top pair on any reasonable board you're never ever folding unless you really want to give away your money. Oh and also if we get it in vs 65s we stand up, fistpump and run around happy
    Last edited by Richard~; Feb 13,2018 at 06:24 AM.
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  6. #21
    Full PFC Member Irunit4times's Avatar
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    I will agree to disagree with you. If I'm in the BB and I have any history with the SB I.e. I've played with them since the beginning of day 2 right up to the bubble I will have a good feel for the players tendencies. And if I'm in the BB and I have seen the SB playing scared I'm going to put a lot of pressure back on the SB whenever he raises into me and I have a hand I can reasonably play back with. Of course there will be many hands I will just outright fold to the SB but a lot of suited face card Ax Kx Qx or Jx combos I will rejam as well as middle suited connectors as well as 22+ and all strong 2 face card combo hands and expect a fold by this player 90% of the time. If player stays more balanced this is not as much a possibility to exploit as he has shown he is not scared to call it off or call it off lighter in a position that allows for it and will go for the double up rather than squeaking into the money. The last week these players are very apparent and were exploitable everywhere. He even admits that it would have been his biggest cash and basically straight up admitted he was playing a bit scared. So that said it would be a great time to exploit such a player who opens 2x to 2.5x wtv his typical raising range is.

    I have also seen many many times these same players will photograph their weaker hands in these positions by raising a slightly higher than usual amount to try to steal blinds even harder and not staying balanced on bet siding.

    Now if sb opens and the BB flats it can be very exploitable by the SB since they get first action on the flop and if the flop favours their range paired or not a cbet will most likely take the pot down and if called on flop check it and fold to any further bets unless improving.

    So now if I'm in the SB and I'm playing against a solid player that knows how to play very good short stack and bubble play, the best thing to do is to open jam to this player and remove his ability to exploit you and force him to wake up with a hand. At 17bb Ace rag is definitely a fold unless SB has shown to be a cannon. But given this conversation I'm going to assume SB table image is much tighter than a cannon. It's reasonable to assume that Ace rag will fold as they should but if it happens that Ace rag calls kq still has sufficient equity to run 5 cards in this spot for a chance to double up.

    It would also be reasonable to assume that 22 and 33 even up to 55 would fold as they have enough blinds to pick a better spot to get their chips in on the bubble.

    66 to 99 is a possible call and can go either way without question here but even if they call kq still has appropriate equity to run all 5 cards for a chance to double up.

    So if I am now the SB player and I feel that the BB is a solid player and has shown the he is willing to rejam a late position standard open to a smaller than avg stack more than 12 to 14 bigs than I know he is doing it wider like I would expect him to do and my line would be to trap him by inducing with a slightly larger than usual open and expect to call it off when he jams. I Will also reasonably expect bb to fold in this spot as well but this line is trying exploit the BB who is jamming wider to exploit the SB. It's a trap I'm setting but this is best to run with much much stronger hands than kq.

    Moral of the story for the SB is the least exploitable play in this spot is to open jam on the BB and force the BB to call it off and accept they are taking a flip as long as they don't wake up with a monster then their decision will be hard and most likely get a fold.

    Anyways just my .02 but I will agree to disagree with you that 90% of what I'm saying is wrong.

    P.s. online and live play here varies greatly.

  7. #22
    Full PFC Member Irunit4times's Avatar
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    Oh and if you limp in SB and the BB checks then yes barreling the flop the favours your range is good but if you missed and bb calls you now must shut it down and fold to any further bets or reraising as stack sizes do not allow for much play post flop and should be getting it in with top pairs on reasonably dry boards or flopping high equity combo draws.

    But if you miss flop it's also ok to check down or check fold unless you improve.

  8. #23
    Full PFC Member Irunit4times's Avatar
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    Also, not only do I believe in that a lot, I can tell you that when Mike Leah walked onto my table 1.5 to 2 hours from the bubble, I watched him stack up from his 20bb stack to over average stack by exploiting these players in all the ways mentioned. And he never ever flipped as he put the pressure on all short stacks like him as well as any perceived weaker players just trying to cash. Once he got enough chips he would 3 bet in position virtually 4 to 5 hands per orbit 8 handed and was chipping up like a mad man because everyone tightened up. Downside is I lost a big big pot to him playing in position after I decided to play a flop and post flip with him and he actually had a nutted hand that time. But the frequency with which he was doing it at the table was virtually impossible given the frequency.

    So I can tell you first hand I watched one of the best players in the world do exactly what I'm saying above and exploited many players at bubble time and chipped up huge at our table.

    Take it for what it's worth as it is very dependant on stack sizes at the table players and their tendencies, your own perceived image and tendencies you should be aware of and then of course distance to the bubble and avg stacks and so on. There is no perfect plsy in any one scenario but the best plsy is the one that allows you to play against the players frequencies and tendencies in the least exploitable way and in a way that puts you in a spot to exploit the mistakes of others.

  9. #24
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    There's a fine line between going for exploits and being straight up arrogant.

    Anyway, you might from the sound of it be playing with some of the weakest fishes on the planet, fuck if I know but you're moving away from what OP asked. OP even describe himself as one of the scared players you so love to shit on but even he went to exploit disrespectful tendencies of players like you're describing in this spot. If you start jamming K9o and 89s here OP is printing money from you. The wider BB jams the happier OP will be and from the sound of it he doesn't do a lot of raise folding out of the SB here, certainly not so that you "expect him to fold 90% of the time" or some other major exaggeration. It's his limping range you want to attack not his raising range for this particular player

    And as i've said over and over I really don't believe it's gonna be hard to realise the equity of your hand either if you get called pre or if you limp and get checked behind on. Especially when your hand is as easy to realise as KQ. If you wish to talk about SB raising ranges in this spot for a general player or how i myself would play it I can say with certainty that I can design ranges such that I won't be getting exploited no matter if I limp full range or have a mixed limping and raising strategy
    Last edited by Richard~; Feb 14,2018 at 02:21 AM.
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  10. #25
    Full PFC Member Irunit4times's Avatar
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    You sir may call it arrogant, I'm telling you how I would play that hand, why I would play it like that, and a first hand account of a player 1000x if I'm being modest better than me.

    That said, who is being shit on? The entire game of poker is about exploiting weaker players, scared players. Read every book on bubble play and it will specifically say to find these players and target them in order to chip up. Exploit them. How do you feel I am shitting on anyone?

    Maybe I was playing the worst fish ever, as my last post sums up it is so very situational and there is no one size fits all.

    And if you'd like an example, in the 2500 I'm in the SB and it's folded around to the button who opens. I have him as a short to medium sized stack and will fold a lot when played back at. I look down on my turn and see A9s. That's my hand to 3 bet him here out of position. BB wakes up with a hand tanks for a bit and shows player to his left and folds. Button Insta folds once bb folds. Perfect that's what I was going after. I ask BB what he had that he folded and showed buddy on his left, he says I folded 1010 I just didn't want to play a pot with you. He was the largest stack at the table and I was second or third.

    Moral is he had position and a great 4 getting hand but he mucked it. Once I knew that and player to his left verified, he was now a target to me regardless of his chips.

    There is a lot of bad play at the fallsview and my eyes are finally opening to it. There are reasons why Mike Leah can make final table so often and I was lucky enough to watch it first hand.

    Take it for what it's worth, and if you feel it is arrogant than so be it. I will once again agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Irunit4times; Feb 14,2018 at 12:40 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irunit4times View Post
    You sir may call it arrogant, I'm telling you how I would play that hand, why I would play it like that, and a first hand account of a player 1000x if I'm being modest better than me.

    That said, who is being shit on? The entire game of poker is about exploiting weaker players, scared players. Read every book on bubble play and it will specifically say to find these players and target them in order to chip up. Exploit them. How do you feel I am shitting on anyone?

    Maybe I was playing the worst fish ever, as my last post sums up it is so very situational and there is no one size fits all.

    And if you'd like an example, in the 2500 I'm in the SB and it's folded around to the button who opens. I have him as a short to medium sized stack and will fold a lot when played back at. I look down on my turn and see A9s. That's my hand to 3 bet him here out of position. BB wakes up with a hand tanks for a bit and shows player to his left and folds. Button Insta folds once bb folds. Perfect that's what I was going after. I ask BB what he had that he folded and showed buddy on his left, he says I folded 1010 I just didn't want to play a pot with you. He was the largest stack at the table and I was second or third.

    Moral is he had position and a great 4 getting hand but he mucked it. Once I knew that and player to his left verified, he was now a target to me regardless of his chips.

    There is a lot of bad play at the fallsview and my eyes are finally opening to it. There are reasons why Mike Leah can make final table so often and I was lucky enough to watch it first hand.

    Take it for what it's worth, and if you feel it is arrogant than so be it. I will once again agree to disagree.

    alex...... just glad you are back posting here.

  12. #27
    Administrator compuease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toronto Pimp View Post
    alex...... just glad you are back posting here.
    Can't even remember why he left... Getting old...
    If someone doesn't hate you, you're a wimp... comp: circa 2012.. and now 2013 as well, quite likely continuing into 2014, Now confirmed as CONTINUING well into 2014. Ah, f'it, 2015's just more of the same..

  13. #28
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    I never said don't go for exploits. But be careful about going for exploits because doing so leaves you per definition unbalanced and exploitable yourself, from the sound of it you would've let it rip vs OP because OP had a goal to cash for the first time, and you would've ended up smacking yourself in the face with K8s from the BB because you knew OP wanted to cash badly. He would've baited in exactly the type of play you're praising, with a semi marginal hand nonetheless.

    I don't think OP is very unbalanced from the SB here, sure he may be giving away too many walks, but there's absolutely nothing to indicate that he'd raise exploitably wide or not be aware that the BB would be tempted to rip it in so there's no way in hell you can claim that OP doesn't handle this particular BvB spot properly just because he doesn't jam and give you an easy decision to fold with hands you might otherwise spew
    Last edited by Richard~; Feb 14,2018 at 05:20 PM.
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  14. #29
    Full PFC Member Irunit4times's Avatar
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    So now, if op opens and gets 3 bet jammed on, now the tough decision is placed back on him. Therefore he must decide whether or not he is willing to take that flip. Even up against the hand mentioned k8s he is only 2 to 1. So he is going to lose one in every 3 runs. The point is that you want to put your opponent to making the decisions and not you, especially when your main goal is to cash. Because chances are if you make the decision you may make a bad fold or a bad call at different given times and that feels worse when you bust them getting it in and saying guy called it off for his tournament life with 66 and it held then I called a 3 bet jam with kq and missed.

    Anyways I'm pitting my thoughts on this to bed. If you choose to point out how wrong you think you are I can accept that we disagree and choose not to indulge further. This is just my. 02 worth and can accept your opposing views as equally valid.

    Goodnight

  15. #30
    Full PFC Member Richard~'s Avatar
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    if op opens and gets 3 bet jammed on, now the tough decision is placed back on him
    This part is very overblown, the decision to put in your money was made the moment you put in the first 2.5x, you're not getting put in a tough spot, you wait and see if your trap works and then fistpump if you get it in as a 2 to 1 favorite, Or rather it's overblown for players who are competent. don't you think this is exactly what OP went for? Did he ever claim having to call when shoved on was a "hard call"?. There should be very very few "bet and see what happens" plays in poker. The only way you get put in a tough spots is if you open without a plan to call or fold because BB takes action. Then again k8s may have been a bad example because that hand should probably call a shove as well
    Last edited by Richard~; Feb 15,2018 at 02:26 AM.
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