Re-raising better than calling?

Quinner · May 27,2009, 09:11 PM

Is this costing me too many chips here? I'm just trying to figure out where I stand.

PokerStars Game #28698277059: Tournament #167206584, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2009/05/27 20:55:15 ET
Table '167206584 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Quinner777 (1940 in chips)
Seat 2: MUZZYRAP (4045 in chips)
Seat 3: VirtualVal (1545 in chips)
Seat 6: cov30 (1655 in chips)
Seat 8: Chopsley01 (2490 in chips)
Seat 9: marybfla (1825 in chips)
MUZZYRAP: posts small blind 25
VirtualVal: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Quinner777 [Js Ac]
cov30: folds
Chopsley01: raises 50 to 100
marybfla: folds
Quinner777: calls 100
MUZZYRAP: folds
VirtualVal: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd Ks Ah]
Chopsley01: checks
Quinner777: bets 150
Chopsley01: raises 200 to 350
Quinner777: raises 300 to 650
Chopsley01: raises 550 to 1200
Quinner777: folds
Uncalled bet (550) returned to Chopsley01
Chopsley01 collected 1575 from pot
Chopsley01: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1575 | Rake 0
Board [Qd Ks Ah]
Seat 1: Quinner777 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: MUZZYRAP (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: VirtualVal (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: cov30 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Chopsley01 collected (1575)
Seat 9: marybfla folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I'm wondering now if a raise to 350 pf might have been a better option. That might have told me straight up.

Wetts1012 · May 27,2009, 09:17 PM

On that board, when he makes it 350, you are beat.

Quinner · May 27,2009, 09:31 PM

Is this an 'easy' fold in your opinion, wrt. to the board? Here's my thinking. Hmm min raise looks suspicious, check on the flop, looks ok, I need to bet here though. Uh oh I got re-raised was he slowplaying? I'm not sure lets re pop and see his reaction....oh shit yup, probably hit trips or got lucky with an A10s or something.....FOLDs.

But I'd like to know you're thinking. Is it that much more automatic? AJo in good position looks good call pf. Board looks scary all I have is one pair....bet, get re-raised, yea he must have me. FOLDs.

Sound about right?? I think I need to stop wasting chips on "making sure" and just give it up top pair just isn't that good sometimes.

Wetts1012 · May 27,2009, 09:35 PM

You got checkraised on the flop by a PF raiser on the worst possible board.

That board smashes his range for this type of action.

You are drawing to a 10 imo.

jdAA88 · May 27,2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wetts1012

On that board, when he makes it 350, you are beat.

I dunno about this, people at this level are so bad that they could possibly be doing this with any ace.

Anyways, I would 3bet preflop/stack off....I don't know if it's a leak but I give no respect to preflop minraises against randoms....

westside8 · May 27,2009, 10:14 PM

3 bet this preflop short-handed.

STR82ACE · May 28,2009, 07:05 AM

I give no respect to min raisers whatsoever. Preflop I'm raising him to 300 min to test him out.

Draw heavy board, I'm probably c/c a smallish bet. Re evaluate on the turn, hoping no J drops.

What's with the min bet/raise war? If you're going to raise him, make him pay. This min raise bullshit is for scared money players.

MidnightMike · May 28,2009, 08:36 AM

I tend to agree with what AJ is saying, and would like to also at this time thank him for the free info. I'll make sure to min raise him next time when i have a monster. Sorry didnt mean to get side tracked there. I would have bet pf around 250-325 or so. I think you would have a good idea where your at with a larger pf bet, if he comes back over the top on ya, you can be sure he's holding a made hand. Its really hard to say without knowing his previous actions and the tables dynamics though. The min raise war is pretty pointless though in my opinion. If your gonna come into the pot and be committed to playing the hand I would have come out betting and kept betting. As said before it really is so hard to tell at this level, players fall in love with any ace rag and a pair of kings is a monster to them. I would also have shoved after his first re raise, but thats just me. hope atleast something i have said is sensible and thanks for the actual poker discussion, keep posting hands. Its nice to talk poker on a poker forum. Cheers

Henjon · May 29,2009, 07:43 AM

My general impression from this lower levels: What kind of "moves" does almost everyone know and use (how bad players they otherwise might be)?

- Slowplaying sets
- Check and re-raise on the flop when they have a monster
- Making minraises (or sometimes just limp) from early or middle positions with monsters (in general AA, KK but I sometimes see fishy players makin' a limp with QQ or JJ)

When I see a minraise like this PF I would guess that most of the time it's either slowplaying or a quite weak player who has a good but not very strong hand and likes to build up the pot just a little (To be honest I play like this myself occasionally)

So if I'm basically right, how does this match the actual action in the hand?

- Mr Weakie makes a minraise with say 77 or 88. He will fold to any bet on the flop 9 times out of 10.
- Mr Weakie makes a minraise with JT and hits the nuts. He will check and re-raise. (might be true also for AQ or KQ)
- Mr Tricky slowplays AA or KK (or perhaps even AK, though in my experience most people raise with this hand). He will check and checkraise (though I would expect him to just call and try to extract more chips on later streets sometimes)

The answer is clear: We don't know if we're up against Mr Weakie och Mr Tricky, but we can be pretty sure that we're beaten. At best we have a few outs, but it's possible we're only going for a split. We don't have the odds to call.

Now, I know there's another alternative already discussed. We might be up against Mr Loose who perhaps tried some "smallball" against the pot with say KT or QT. If he did it with suited connectors I think he would fold to our re-raise unless he's not a monsterfish. Now: The flop hit him and he might be best (remember we only called from BB, thereby not representing a particularly strong hand.) so he bets. Wouldn't he fold here also? Perhaps, but we who play on this levels see fools almost everyday that jeopardizes all of their stacks with such marginal or even weak hands.

This is a Sit'n'Go, so in theory we shall try to stay out of marginal situations as long as we're not forced to enter them due to a decreasing M. So even if it's possible that we're up against Mr Loose here and will win a decent amount of chips. Because this occasions doesn't compensate for all the times we will face a monsterhand from Mr Tricky or Mr Weakie and be stonedead. I'll say that this is a clear fold after the first raise on the flop (as played).

blackmagicz · May 29,2009, 10:20 AM

As this played out villian has either 2 pair or a set. The reason for the min raise in that spot from villian is because he can't figure out what hand you have and figures he can at least extract 1 more bet from you.

As played I bet flop and fold to a raise. Once again the texture of that board saves you because you are more likely to go broke if a naked ace hits the flop and villian may hold AK, AQ.