Tight Fold?

MarcoGD · Oct 07,2008, 06:59 PM

2nd hand in a stars SNG. No history on anyone at the table.

PokerStars Game #21012313627: Tournament #112794273, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/10/07 19:45:34 ET
Table '112794273 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: MarcoGD (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: chesrae (1480 in chips)
Seat 3: klode59 (1440 in chips)
Seat 4: mpfinner (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: gestah (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: trabich23 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: lucaade (1580 in chips)
Seat 8: jpholdem (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: jonnyfairpla (1500 in chips)
klode59: posts small blind 10
mpfinner: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MarcoGD [Jh Js]
gestah: calls 20
trabich23: folds
lucaade: calls 20
jpholdem: raises 140 to 160
jonnyfairpla: calls 160
MarcoGD: folds
chesrae: calls 160
klode59: folds
mpfinner: folds
gestah: calls 140
lucaade: calls 140
*** FLOP *** [9h 4c Kc]
gestah: checks
lucaade: checks
jpholdem: bets 1340 and is all-in
jonnyfairpla: folds
chesrae: folds
gestah: folds
lucaade: folds
Uncalled bet (1340) returned to jpholdem
jpholdem collected 830 from pot
jpholdem: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 830 | Rake 0
Board [9h 4c Kc]
Seat 1: MarcoGD folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: chesrae (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: klode59 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: mpfinner (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: gestah folded on the Flop
Seat 6: trabich23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: lucaade folded on the Flop
Seat 8: jpholdem collected (830)
Seat 9: jonnyfairpla folded on the Flop

pkrfce9 · Oct 07,2008, 10:03 PM

so tight even a rock couldn't get it in

adpro · Oct 09,2008, 06:26 AM

Pre-flop with JJ and you folded to a medium sized bet? Yeah, I would say that is a pretty tight fold. What if you had 99 pre-flop with that bet, and then this flop came out? You would have been able to take all of that guys chips.

Either way, you would have folded on the flop, so I guess the end result for this one situation is 'better', since you saved 160 chips, but you still had a huge chance in winning. Remember, sets hit on the flop about 12% of the time. You can usually rake in a lot of coin when they do.

Wetts1012 · Oct 09,2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adpro

Either way, you would have folded on the flop, so I guess the end result for this one situation is 'better', since you saved 160 chips, but you still had a huge chance in winning. Remember, sets hit on the flop about 12% of the time. You can usually rake in a lot of coin when they do.

Set mining 8xBB raises? oh my head.

But thats not the point.

2nd hand so its a tough spot. Calling is definately your worst option here.
In all likelyhood if you put in a raise its gonna end up getting shoved so you might as well consider it a push or fold.

If youre a degen I think best case scenario is you're flipping. So I really dont mind the fold here. I am probably 60/40 folding/shoving depending on my mood.

westside8 · Oct 09,2008, 07:39 AM

I probably just shove preflop and will probably curse 50% of the time they had AA/KK/QQ, cross my fingers and win the flip 30% of the time, and laugh 20% of the time you get called with Ax or a smaller PP

The_Awesome · Oct 09,2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westside8

I probably just shove preflop and will probably curse 50% of the time they had AA/KK/QQ, cross my fingers and win the flip 30% of the time, and laugh 20% of the time you get called with Ax or a smaller PP

When I push there I usually get called with K j off suit and lose. It use to make me throw up on the table but with enough repeated exposure over time it's amazing what you can learn to stomach without heaving.

westside8 · Oct 09,2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westside8

i probably just shove preflop and will probably curse 50% of the time they had aa/kk/qq, cross my fingers and win the flip 30% of the time, and laugh 20% of the time you get called with ax or a smaller pp and lose while throwing up

fmp

Graham · Oct 09,2008, 09:47 AM

That raise is quite suspicious, but the shove post flop is even weirder. 1st level of the tourney a lot of people go for the quick double up with strong hands because nobody can really put them on anything. I think it probably was the right fold, because if you re-raise to find out where you are you will lose a ton more chips if he comes back over the top. In this situation I think it was the right play because I like to try and keep the pots relatively small and it is clear that the maniac you were playing had no intention of doing so.

pkrfce9 · Oct 09,2008, 10:02 AM

"better to lose a small pot than win a big one." discuss.

Wetts1012 · Oct 09,2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkrfce9

"better to lose a small pot than win a big one." discuss.

oicwydt

MarcoGD · Oct 09,2008, 10:21 AM

Thanks. I actually was getting ready to 3Bet the initial raiser, but after JonnyFairPlay called I decided that a 3Bet sqeeze was only going to commit the rest of my chips to the hand so I was either shoving or folding. However, if I knew then what I know now about these two I would have shoved and hoped for the best.

Quinner · Mar 16,2009, 03:42 PM

I'm a bit of a newb so maybe someone could explain to me the thinking here. I don't understand why calling is the worst option here. Say he calls and the flop(A) comes 10 7 3 rainbow, hero makes a pot sized bet and takes it down. If it comes flop (B) K x x then folding post flop is the most likely play. What if hero re-raises, as you guys say it will probably be an all in confrontation, if villain has AK and he calls the all in and say hits his K or A on the river, you're going to lose all your chips. But what if villain has AK and you call, and flop(A) comes, or even Q x x, your probably going to be able to outplay him in these situations and it won't get to the river where he eventually would have hit his A or K had you both gone all in.

I guess I'm a bit conservative, but it seems to me calling is the safest way to play this situation if you are concerned about survival (and assuming that you can outplay your opponents enough that you don't feel like risking a coin flip). It seems like instead of a risk all my chips or double up situation, you could turn it into a risk 160 chips, but say he hit's top pair to your overpair you could end up winning 500+ chips or even stack him if you hit a set and he hits two pair kind of sitch. It just doesn't make sense to me to risk all my chips when I can easily avoid this situation and still possibly get chips, possibly alot of chips if the flop is right. And worst case scenario is hero loses 160 chips. That doesn't sound too bad to me....

Thoughts?

blackmagicz · Mar 16,2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinner

I'm a bit of a newb so maybe someone could explain to me the thinking here. I don't understand why calling is the worst option here. Say he calls and the flop(A) comes 10 7 3 rainbow, hero makes a pot sized bet and takes it down. If it comes flop (B) K x x then folding post flop is the most likely play. What if hero re-raises, as you guys say it will probably be an all in confrontation, if villain has AK and he calls the all in and say hits his K or A on the river, you're going to lose all your chips. But what if villain has AK and you call, and flop(A) comes, or even Q x x, your probably going to be able to outplay him in these situations and it won't get to the river where he eventually would have hit his A or K had you both gone all in.

I guess I'm a bit conservative, but it seems to me calling is the safest way to play this situation if you are concerned about survival (and assuming that you can outplay your opponents enough that you don't feel like risking a coin flip). It seems like instead of a risk all my chips or double up situation, you could turn it into a risk 160 chips, but say he hit's top pair to your overpair you could end up winning 500+ chips or even stack him if you hit a set and he hits two pair kind of sitch. It just doesn't make sense to me to risk all my chips when I can easily avoid this situation and still possibly get chips, possibly alot of chips if the flop is right. And worst case scenario is hero loses 160 chips. That doesn't sound too bad to me....

Thoughts?

I am looking to build a big stack or open another one. Maybe in a live tourney you may want to play JJ a little slower but online you want to build a chip stack so you can then wield it in these SNGs. The idea is then when you actually do get hit later on in the tourney from some suck out or bad beat, you have enough to keep going.

Trying to survive a SNG is not profitable nowadays. Like Westside said, shove and hope that no one wakes up with AA/KK/QQ....