Advice on this hand

CrazyJoe113 · Feb 21,2005, 10:04 AM

I have a 16 player tournament at my apartment every month with starting chips of 1500. I had one on Saturday and in the 3rd hand of the tournament (blinds 5/10) , I am dealt KK UTG, being at an 8 person table, I limp hoping for someone to raise, unfortunately nobody does and the flop gets seen 5 handed.

Flop : A(sp) K(h) 5(sp)

2nd to act bets 25, I raise to 50, next player raises to 100, everyone else folds to me, I raise to 200, he calls.

Turn: A(d)

I bet 100, he raises to 300. I've played with this player alot and I know he would do this with any A and would also call any raise I make with an A, so I move all in and he calls. I turn over my Kings full of Aces, and he turns over A5 for Aces over 5s and I'm first one eliminated after the river was not a K.

Now, with me knowing he had an ace, should I have not moved in and played the hand out for less? Raising pre-flop wouldn't have made this player fold A5, so that didn't make a difference.

Flint Bones · Feb 21,2005, 10:30 AM

I personally would have raised before the flop. In the UTG position you typically want to get the limpers out to avoid flush/straight draws and other risks.

Once the second Ace hit and the opponent was still raising I would have been worried about the third ace in his pocket. I wouldn't have put him on the 5, though.

It's tough to fold pocket Kings with a King on the board.

To me, pocket Kings are death. They have never NEVER won hand for me and I have been beaten by them too many times.

CrazyJoe113 · Feb 21,2005, 11:04 AM

I wasn't worried about JUST a third ace, because I had a full house, the only thing i had to worry about was him pairing his kicker, or his kicker already being paired.

Flint Bones · Feb 21,2005, 11:44 AM

I understand that. I would have still been concerned about that Ace. After the flop I think you did well. When he didn't give it to your raises I may have put him on the A K. Although the odds were against it, it was still possible.

In the end you got beat by a better hand. In this case it really comes down to reading the other guy. You knew he had the Ace but not the 5. It's a tough loss but not one to beat yourself up over. You had the hand to play and played it. You got beat. Not much would have changed your outlook.

CrazyJoe113 · Feb 21,2005, 12:49 PM

that's what i was thinking, just thinking maybe I shouldn't have moved in on him at that point, played it for a raise and see what happened, I don't think this player would have moved in on me, so I probably could have showed down the hand with chips left. I knew he didn't have A K, this player would have indefinitely raised preflop with AK. I knew this player really well and he would've played it the EXACT same way with any ace, including calling my all-in.

pkrfce9 · Feb 21,2005, 01:24 PM

So you slow-played your kings hoping to maximize your win? I understand the notion since the blinds weren't worth fighting over.

And you got a great flop and turn too! The only hands that were better than you were AA on the flop and then AK and A5 on the turn. Seems pretty low risk. I'd have gone broke too, I'm afraid.

You pretty much eliminated AA and AK since you KNEW he wouldn't slow play them. I guess he's not as tricky as you? I guess if you put him on any ace, then why not A5? Unlikely but I guess there's a 3 in 43 (?) chance he has a 5. Seems like good odds for you but the downside is catastrophic. Depends on your risk profile, I guess.

You wanted a shot to double up and you got it. However, when he called your re-raise on the flop, that should gotten the warning bells ringing. Is he really the kind of player to make a big raise then call a re-raise with top pair and lousy kicker? Mind you, your pre-flop action did nothing to make him think you had a monster. If I were him, I would have put you on a set of 5s with your re-raise and pre-flop limp. In my mind, at that point it is more likely he's got 55. Very interesting.

I don't necessarily fault your pre-flop play due to the size of the blinds and your early position. There was nothing in the pot to fight over. Once your flop re-raise was called, I'd be a bit cautious. I don't think you played it wrong. The odds were in your favour and you played it aggressively to maximize your win. He just happened to have the perfect cards. (Sh)it happens. Should this change the way you play in the future? Maybe a bit but that's a tough one. If he had been the one to bet all-in, would you have called?

sweetjimmi · Feb 21,2005, 01:36 PM

I think all your concern over this hand is results oriented. Simply put...you didn't put your opponent on AK ... therefore you have think you're good. The only way I fold this hand is if I can put my opponent on AK.

Most likely going broke with this hand regardless of how you play it. Tough break.

CrazyJoe113 · Feb 21,2005, 06:07 PM

My concern over this hand IS results oriented, the only thing that has been bugging me is that I don't think I had to go broke, I don't think he would've moved in if I didn't. He was stoned and probably not thinking of it as an option to be honest. Thanks for your analysis. I just limped with the Kings hoping to be raised since I was in first position at an 8 seat table, so I could reraise. Unfortunately it didn't work, in this case, it wouldn't have mattered anyway, but that was my plan. The good thing about going out, is I have my tournaments set up so that the first player out gets to deal for the final table in exchange for their buy-in returned. I never thought I would have to use it though, I said before the tournament to my buddy, the only way I'm going out first is if I lose to quads to my full, or over full to my concealed full. That's just what happened though.

Cheese · Feb 21,2005, 08:18 PM

I agree with sweetjimmi & pkrfce9. I would have gone broke here too and I don't know anyone who wouldn't have.

If you know you wouldn't have pushed this particular player out betting pre-flop then your only option would be to not hit the hand so hard. I'm sure you would have the same result though. If you just call and see the river he is going to go all-in anyway, and I don't see how you could possibly lay it down.