TheBusDriver

This situation came up last night in a Ching. Hill game. I think the situation transcends just our little tournament, so I thought I ask the greater minds what they think. I know there are two schools of thought of what to do when a player is all-in. The regular school that say check it down, and the crazy-short-bus-riding-school of bet your hand.

I wont go into too much detail about the cards, because really the situation is more relevant, and I don’t really remember the cards that well.

4 players left in the tournament, top 3 pay.
Dealer: short stack 1500
SB: chip leader 5000
BB: 2nd in chips 3500
UTG: 3rd in chips 3000

Blinds: 75/150

UTG raises 450
Dealer all-in 1500
SB folds
BB calls
UTG calls

Flop card-card-card

Check then check

Turn another card

Check then check

River card (we like to play all 5 cards at Ching Hill)

Everything is going to plan. Play is seemingly being checked down. Like I said, I don’t remember the cards, but there wasn’t a pair on board, flush wasn’t possible, and if you were holding Q, 10 it would make the nuts straight. So the board at the river might have looked like this.



BB bets 600

The conversation afterwards went like this.

UTG “Why would you bet into a dead side pot?”

BB “In case I lose”

UTG folds

I wont say the result of the show down, because my questions are?

Was BB crazy to bet?
Was UTG crazy to fold?

The results don’t really matter, I just interested in the logic of the situation, if there was any at all.

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BigChrisEl

If I have the nuts I always bet them, (I may bet them if I have the current nuts but not the immortal nuts, a straight on a flushing board for example just to protect my hand) if I have a strong hand (trips, straight, etc.) I usually bet them too.

I find that you tend to get people that will call when they have top pair or top two and not only win the main but also a little extra on the side which is a nice little bonus plus if you have a strong hand and the player that is all-in can beat it then chances are that all players were beat anyways so it doesn't matter.

BTW Just check the nuts against me…only bet them against other players.

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AcidJoe

MY guess given the preflop betting was he had some kind of over pair, there was a raise and a all in re raise which he called cold. I don't understand the incase I lose comment, but without knowing the cards I don't know if this was a value bet that he hoped would get called or if he wanted to get heads up with the first all in who he figured he was beating. UTG I think only calls this if he's sure he's winning so it looks to me like that it isn't a good bet.

With a dead side pot I don't mind betting a hand, but certainly if you had AK here I wouldn't want to bet into the side pot as clearly eliminating the all in player should be of more value than losing chips as you now make the money. Keeping the small stack alive with a mis timed bluff now puts you at risk of being the bubble boy.

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IM-ON-TILT

I would have to agree with the BB's bet. There are three players in the pot with one all-in. If you have a hand, bet it. The side pot is between the side players and has no relation to the all-in player. I think UTG was implying that if BB didn't have hand, what would be the purpose of the bet?

JohnnieH

Correct. It's wrong to bluff into a dry side-pot. Of course you would check it down to increase the chances of bursting the bubble. (I hate when online players do this!)

But if you're ahead, get your chips in there, don't worry about what the All_in player has.

Johnnie

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Buzzzardd

I couldn't have said it better myself. I wouldn't bet after the river here unless I had a minimum of two pair.

I would have bet after the flop with an A-J or better. It is great to get rid of a player but you have to protect your hand also.

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pkrfce9

i'd classify that as a really bad bubble play under many circumstances

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STR82ACE

Greg, I personally would like to hear more logic behind your statement on this one.

What hole cards would you make a bet into a side pot with a board like that, on the bubble, with an allin and cold callers preflop? Both flop and turn are checked down, and a rag on the river creating a small side pot?

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SteveKerr

here is something that happened at one of my home games,

5 players left and 4 pays

blinds 100 - 200

UTG pushed all for a total of 800, folds to small blind whis chip leader, and he calls, BB is second in chips and also calls

flop is Qc 8c 4c

SB bets 600 and BB Folds

SB shows 8 A and UTG shows 10c 10h

Turn was 2h and River was 5c

I was the BB is this situation and had a Jc in my hand and would have put UTG out if it was checked down.

I couldn't understand why the BB would bet with just hitting middle pair on the flop.

Any thoughts on this?

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JohnnieH

Terrible bet.

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pkrfce9

to some donkeys, money means nothing. a bale of hay? now THAT'S something!

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AcidJoe

that is a horrible horrible bet steve, that guy deserves to go out on the bubble for making that play.

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James

Ignoring the atrocious preflop plays by both the BB and UTG, This was a good river bet. (assuming at least 1 pair, or A high.)

Here are the possible scenarios when checking down the river.
a) Dealer wins (THE BB went from 2nd to a virtual tie for last)
Dealer -4575
SB - 4925
BB - 2000
UTG - 1500

b) UTG wins (BB went from 2nd place to a virtual lock of last)
Dealer - Eliminated
SB - 4925
BB - 2000
UTG - 6075

c) BB wins (BB is in much better position to cash high)
Dealer - Eliminated
SB - 4925
BB - 6575
UTG - 1500


Now when BB bets out 600 on the river here the final chipstacks are roughly the same as above.
in all cases if BB loses, he was likely finishing 4th or 3rd anyways.
However, with the bet on the river, he can hopefully chase away a weak hand from UTG that beats him, giving him what should have been done preflop, (isolation). UTG can't call without a Huuuuuuge hand, as most players will not bet the "dry side" without such.
(eg. UTG holds say a pair of 7s, vs, BB holding a pair of 3s., UTG can't call).

Sooooooo, if UTG does call BB and UTG wins, the result is the same as checking it down.... BB is still at a large chip deficit and is more than likely going to finish 3rd anyways.



Summary Reasoning: The only reason the bet is good in THIS instance, is because (IMO) BB and UTG both "called" rather than Raising for isolation preflop, thus, making an opportunity for BB to bet UTG off a hand that would otherwise beat him yet is still weak.

<I refuse to proofread this, cuz it's too damn long>