Does anyone really think the land based casinos will let poker rooms open?

Yorkpoker · Jun 08,2005, 02:04 PM

I have been reading, with much anguish, many of the arguments about getting poker 'legalized' and how the government (in Ontario) should get off its butt and do some gaming law reform.

Here are some internet facts people (take them for what they're worth - they ARE from the PR side of the government):

I don't care what some officer at the local OPP office told you. Here's what is on the book as far as the rules. http://www.agco.on.ca/en/c.gaming/c.gaming.html. Scotty posted a link to the relevant criminal code sections in the KWSOP thread over in home games. I think it is also important to include the interpretation of the AGCO on this, not just what is written. That is why I am linking to them here.

The problem with people asking the POLICE about the rules is that when s*** hits the fan, it is not the police you have to deal with. It is the AGCO lawyers. I think the OPP's gaming division has a valid and significant idea of what is practical and what they will look at, but at the end of the day, you are dealing with the AGCO. Stop arguing about that part. Read up on this section and ask questions, but it is bloody clear to me - they want no gaming run in this province without their say-so. Very governmental I agree, but they are allowed to do this as we continue to not vote for anything in Ontario and let whoever is in power already coast to another term without answering for anything (sorry for the mini-rant)

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The government makes a punt-load of money from the commercial casinos (not the charity casinos. Although I am sure their numbers are interesting, but I shall stick to the main story here). Take a look: http://corporate.olgc.ca/econ_commercial.jsp. I will be happy to sum those numbers up for anyone interested. The government makes a killing from gambling. Last year, the province (not the casino mind you) made $420,000,000 from gambling and poker does not represent much (when I spoke with a rep of Casinorama on an unrelated matter, she said they figure it to be less than 2% of total gaming revenue).

This means that the government will do much to keep the commercial locations happy, and poker does not factor into that. Opening a poker room in the city (or any of the cities) will only piss off the commercial casinos as they would obviously like to maintain their oligopoly (economic term meaning monopoly held be a small number of firms). Think of it like this. Compare it to the 2004 Philidelphia Eagles; if you don't get along with the star quarterback and are the #3 receiver (Freddy Mitchell vs. Donovan McNabb), you quickly find yourself off the team.

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http://ql.quicklaw.com/LNC_login_en.html I am not a lawyer, so I have no actual use of this site, but if anyone has a password, please do a search on gaming/poker and post the results. My personal notes on the matter are as follows. I worked for a man named Michael Mandel who was the CEO of Funtime hosptiality corp. He operated one of the better charity casinos back in the day and he was one of the people granted a license to open one of the permenant charitiy locations. Long story short, he got screwed (when they opened the Blue Heron) and sued the AGCO. One of his settlement offers was to let him open a poker room in the city somewhere. This was shot down several times over several years.

Mainly for the afforementioned reason. Poker does not make enough money for the big boys (relative to total income from gaming) and so they will be unlikely to expand their poker sections significantly. Perhaps if the WPT brings an event here, some of this will change, but left to its own devices, no way.

The folks over at the AGCO have plans to keep the big boys happy. $420,000,000 in 2003.
The folks over at the AGCO have lawyers. Lots of em.
The folks over at the AGCO have experience with this fight. Lots of it.

I don't mean to throw a wet towel on anyone who knows someone in the government and would like to reform the gaming laws, or anyone who is uberpissed (do we have oomlauts here?) about the pending crackdown. Please surprise me and get me a poker room in the 416. I also think people tend to underestimate what goes into a lawsuit of that caliber. You better have stats and reports and TIME, to fight it out. I would be the first one in the door if they ever opened a card room in the city, I just can't hold my breath that long.

ScoobyD · Jun 08,2005, 02:44 PM

Not to nitpick but I think it's AGCO (Alcohol and Gaming Commision of Ontario) not ACGO. And IF the numbers add up then arguing that they want to preserve their Oligopoly on gambling seems a little off, since after all, poker only accounts for some 2% of their revenue. I think more likely they're just too damn lazy to actually rewrite any of the laws and instead keep the defacto standard of keeping the government in control of all gambling ventures within the province. Just my 2 cents.

im a clown · Jun 08,2005, 04:30 PM

I rhink the reason they want to preserve their Oligopoly is so people still come to their establishment. While they are on the waiting list for poker they might play some blackjack or if they get hungry they will dine there.
For casinos it is all about getting people in the door.

Yorkpoker · Jun 08,2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyD

Not to nitpick but I think it's AGCO (Alcohol and Gaming Commision of Ontario) not ACGO. And IF the numbers add up then arguing that they want to preserve their Oligopoly on gambling seems a little off, since after all, poker only accounts for some 2% of their revenue. I think more likely they're just too damn lazy to actually rewrite any of the laws and instead keep the defacto standard of keeping the government in control of all gambling ventures within the province. Just my 2 cents.

Oops. I stand corrected - my acronyms were mixed up.

I am just saying that the casinos can't be bothered to change the poker situation and that the government won't risk pissing the casinos off.

Yorkpoker · Jun 08,2005, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by im a clown

I rhink the reason they want to preserve their Oligopoly is so people still come to their establishment. While they are on the waiting list for poker they might play some blackjack or if they get hungry they will dine there.
For casinos it is all about getting people in the door.

EXACTLY!

They don't give a hoot if we have to wait 4 hours for a game. They are happy to let the police shut down psuedo-legit local games for that exact reason.

AcesUp · Jun 08,2005, 05:31 PM

A casino in Toronto won't happen for a long time. It would hurt Brantford, Rama and Port Perry too much. I donâ€™t think the government will be handing out card room licenses like in other provinces and the charity days for years to come.

Although recently I believe the government was trying to tax professional gamblers on their winnings. But since it is a game of luck they couldnâ€™t but by changing it to a game of skill I think they can.

Yorkpoker · Jun 09,2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcesUp

Although recently I believe the government was trying to tax professional gamblers on their winnings. But since it is a game of luck they couldnâ€™t but by changing it to a game of skill I think they can.

Incorrect.

If you make your living as a gambler, you currently must file income reports based on that income. Therefore you must keep diligent records if playing cards (or slots or bingo or horses) is you main source of income. Of course it is up to the gov't to prove it, but if they want to, they will rip you a new one looking.

joerockhead · Jun 09,2005, 09:13 AM

You are right the govt would rather has bus loads of grannies feeding slot machines as they make more money at this than raking poker games. That said, there is always an online game 24/7, and you don't have to leave your house.

Liked the football analogy but Freddie Mitchell was cut because he is an idiot, not because soup boy didnt like him.

Shook · Jun 09,2005, 02:04 PM

Not that I don't trust the online gaming, and I am sure there is a lot of garbage happening at some spots. I think playing people face-to-face ... er ... to Face(s) is the best. Nothing compares to the intensity of phyically holding cards ... knowing that at any moment you may have to stand up and walk away (rather than flaming a nameless person/bot and logging off).

I think part of the issue with allowing permits for rooms with be enforcement and regulation. I know that seems to be a very simple point, but I think it is overlooked.

Just my two cents...

Yorkpoker · Jun 10,2005, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shook

I think part of the issue with allowing permits for rooms with be enforcement and regulation. I know that seems to be a very simple point, but I think it is overlooked.

I am not following. If they were to regulate and open card rooms, they would be little left to enforce. Clubs would necessarily shut down, as you would have the ability to play in a nice, clean, smoke free, safe and legal poker room.

Shook · Jun 10,2005, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkpoker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shook

I think part of the issue with allowing permits for rooms with be enforcement and regulation.Â* I know that seems to be a very simple point, but I think it is overlooked.

I am not following.Â* If they were to regulate and open card rooms, they would be little left to enforce.Â* Clubs would necessarily shut down, as you would have the ability to play in a nice, clean, smoke free, safe and legal poker room.

Just like serving Alcohol. Even though a bar may be licensed to serve there are rules to follow and people to enforce those rules. That would require additional manpower and costs that makes issuing permits not profitable for the gov't.

Just my two cents.

Yorkpoker · Jun 11,2005, 10:44 PM

fair enough.

I just think the politics get in the way of anything. That is to say NOTHING of the municipal stuff where the actual city would probably balk at having a casino (or card room) within the city limits. I would assume it to be as difficult, if not worse, than getting zoning toopen a strip bar.