Voodoo

New to the forum here. I was directed here by poster RiverRatJosh and am enjoying the content so I thought I'd register and post.

Now onto what I hope brings an array of opinions. I recently had a discussion (argument) with friends regarding whether there could ever be a situation where a player could fold pocket kings preflop. Obviously this question is based on a tournament setting.

I'll post what actually happened after some feedback.


Cheers

Voodoo

Wolffhound

Welcome,

You could do a "search" on the forum as it comes up a few times.

Daniel Negraneau discusses it in his blog from last week...he folded Kings pre-flop after he convinced himself that Weak/Tight guy had AA...after mucking his K's, buddy showed his QQ

I'm too weak to fold KK...if it turns out buddy has AA...good for him. There are special circumstances where I might be able to fold...but, I doubt it.

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pkrfce9

Please promise me you will never, ever do that.

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WaterLooser

I agree with Wolffhound. The situation would have to be pretty intense (i.e. facing elimination on the bubble for the money) for me to fold them pre-flop.

A situation close to this actually happened to me the other night. I was playing in a bar tourney, it was only the 5th hand of the night and a kid (drinking red bull or something) UTG goes all in for 3400 (start with 4K). Everyone wisely folds as there is only the SB and the BB in the pot. I almost folded blind, but decided to give it a look. I had QQ. This play just did not make any sense. But the situation was, free buy-in and if I lose I get to go watch Monday night Football. If I win, I get to have a healthy stack compared to the rest of the table. I figured he had 99 or TT and was just too cafinated after his energy drink to resist putting in any less than all of his chips. So I re-raise all-in (as there were still the button and the blinds to decide). Kid flips over JJ, Q on the flop and I basically double up. Other situations I might have folded (and even here I almost did just because I didn't want to go home in the first 5 minutes if I was wrong).

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SirWatts

It's usually not a good idea., you'd need to have a really good read on the player and probably a physical tell of some sort. Though the ridiculously small preflop reraise always makes me suspicious, I still haven't fold to it. For example I raise with QQ and get reraised only slightly more than the minimum on-line. I say aloud he has aces as I push my chips over to his stack (they make a brief pitstop in the middle of the table). I'm not sure how many times this has happened in the last 2 weeks but it's pretty depressing.

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ScottyZ

It would have to be a specific situation where either:

a) You had a reliable read on your opponent that he will have pocket Aces a huge percentage of the time.

or

b) You are in a tournament meta-situation (most likely something to do with the payout structure) where you are reluctant to play in a spot where you are likely to be (roughly) a 70-30 favorite at worst, and quite likely to have an even greater edge than this.

Both of these are possible, but exceptionally rare.

See TPFAP for an example of a specific tournament situation where it is a (monetary) +EV play to fold AA (and, therefore, also KK).

There have been a couple of references in the thread to a vastly different hand, namely QQ. While I have never folded KK pre-flop in any poker situation so far, I have folded QQ pre-flop several times. Again, this is still an unusual play to make even with QQ, but the existence of the specific hand AK (and double the probability of being against an overpair) creates an enormous difference between these two hands.

ScottyZ

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STR82ACE

KK preflop? Fold??

I'm nowhere near the skill level to determine if I'm beat at this point. No way!!!

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Wolffhound

I was at work otherwise I would have taken the time to explain what I meant by "Special circumstances", but, it was the above from Skalansky's Tourn book.

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talonchick

I folded KK preflop last week during the $11 R on stars (after the break of course), I was in the BB and 2UTG made the usually 3x bet, guy on his immediate left cold called quickly, folded around to me I make it 5x his bet. He moves all in and the cold caller...well cold calls and now its back to me. I think and fold. The hands that are rolled over are AA and QJ (from the cold caller).

I made my decision based on a few things...1 the caller was really throwing me off, 2 the chip stacks (we were chip leading at the table) and I hadn't committed a significant enough portion of my chips to the pot, 3 and maybe my most important...is that I finally trusted my gut instinct to know I was behind!

ryanghall

I've done it 3 times. None in tournaments, however. All were in cash games vs uber-rocks. 2 of the times I was right to and the other one I'll never know.

In a tournament, you'd certainly do it in, say, the first level of the WSOP. If someone decent gets all-in... what do you think they've got when they're that deep?

In the vast majority of tournaments against the vast majority of players, of course, you'll never lay it down.

Ryan

BBC Z

Y http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=3099.0
A http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=3655.0
W http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=2204.0
N http://www.pokerforum.ca/forum/index.php?topic=4650.0

Why does this topic always come up? Is the biggest leak in your game going all-in with kings and losing to aces?

Geez.

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sweetjimmi

I was waiting for this:

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justinhawes

I find that no matter what pocket pairs I have it is hard to fold. Naturally it is easier to fold pockt twos over pocket kings, but it always depends on how man people are in the hand, position, and size of bets. I play a lot of cash games at the casino. 3+ times a week. Here people are very timmid, so slow playing the kings, or any pocket pair for that matter is a good move. But tournament play, I am a strong beleiver in the pre flop all in move with any pocket pair, because no matter what hand your opponent is playing, it is always a gamble to slow play pocket pairs.

In conclusion, no, I would never fold pocket kings.

CrazyJoe113

Depends on how deep the chip stacks are and how many raises have happened. I once heard a pro say, a re-raise could be aces, a re-re-re-raise is most likely aces, a re-re-re-re-raise is aces.

Obviously if someone goes all in immediately it could be a range of hands.

However, If you each have 5000 chips, and blinds are 5/10 for instance, you raise to 30, he reraises to 100, you raise to 500, and he reraises to 1000 or something, it's MUCH more likely for him to have aces. He's obviously trying to get the action, doesnt want you out. Chip stacks that deep are rare though, and it most situations they wouldnt be deep enought to get away from KK preflop