Heads up QTs vs K7 ???

nikleger · Oct 21,2007, 02:49 PM

This will sound very basic to experienced players but here goes:

On most hand rankings I find QTs to be a much better hand than K7. However when facing one another in heads up, the king seven off suit actually has the edge. How can that be?

I've seen some reference for the QT suited as high as 18 on 169 and as low as 122 for the K7 offsuit. The 122 seems off but shouldnt QT suited get the edge?

Please enlighten me :-)

Much thanks!

JohnnieH · Oct 22,2007, 05:14 AM

Well a King is higher than a queen......

K7 is only ahead by 51.84%, not something I call an "edge" for all practical purposes.

Monteroy · Oct 22,2007, 07:18 AM

Q 10 suited plays better against multiple players.

Keep in mind many people think 10 J suited is one of the best hands and think that applies even when heads up all in, but in the end it is just jack high and is a slight underdog to Q 2 suited (since the queen wins if both fail to improve).

pokerJAH · Oct 22,2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monteroy

Q 10 suited plays better against multiple players.

Keep in mind many people think 10 J suited is one of the best hands and think that applies even when heads up all in, but in the end it is just jack high and is a slight underdog to Q 2 suited (since the queen wins if both fail to improve).

but I love J10 suited

m_dolens · Oct 22,2007, 08:42 AM

tip: keep in mind though that every possible straight has either a 5 or a 10 in it (so you might want to hold onto those tens

)

zunni74 · Oct 22,2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikleger

This will sound very basic to experienced players but here goes:

On most hand rankings I find QTs to be a much better hand than K7. However when facing one another in heads up, the king seven off suit actually has the edge. How can that be?

I've seen some reference for the QT suited as high as 18 on 169 and as low as 122 for the K7 offsuit. The 122 seems off but shouldnt QT suited get the edge?

Please enlighten me :-)

Much thanks!

Let's see if I remember this math first thing on a Monday. In a Headsup situation, there is a 60% chance that neither person will pair any of their cards from the board. Board comes 226 8 4 who wins? Since the K is higher than the Q, it deserves the edge. Where non-highest card doesn't have an edge is when there is an open ended straight and flush possibilities from a flop for one player. Since the person has so many outs and 2 cards to come (9 from the flush and 6 from the straight) it's a good percentage change he'll hit one of those by the time they go to the river.

ReefAquarium · Oct 22,2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zunni74

Let's see if I remember this math first thing on a Monday. In a Headsup situation, there is a 60% chance that neither person will pair any of their cards from the board. Board comes 226 8 4 who wins? Since the K is higher than the Q, it deserves the edge. Where non-highest card doesn't have an edge is when there is an open ended straight and flush possibilities from a flop for one player. Since the person has so many outs and 2 cards to come (9 from the flush and 6 from the straight) it's a good percentage change he'll hit one of those by the time they go to the river.

KX is difficult to play.
QT is easier to play.

If an K flops and you have K7 is your 7 kicker good?
Will you get bluffed off your top pair?
Can you valuebet it with confidence?

zunni74 · Oct 22,2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReefAquarium

KX is difficult to play.
QT is easier to play.

If an K flops and you have K7 is your 7 kicker good?
Will you get bluffed off your top pair?
Can you valuebet it with confidence?

Regardless of the quality of kicker, that doesn't change the fact that heads-up K7 is a stronger hand then QT. That's based purely on the face value of the cards, is it best based on play? Who knows, I know people who can play 62o like they are Aces and take down pots, does that make 62o more valuable than AA? Of course not. Mathematically K7 is stronger than QT is my point. not by much ( I think I saw 51.35% above) but still better.

JohnnieH · Oct 22,2007, 03:24 PM

Forget King-7.

Everybody knows that KING 8 MAKE MONEY!*

Johnnie.

*note this joke is for K-W Regulars.

blueodum · Oct 27,2007, 09:27 AM

High cards increase in value the fewer players see the flop. Suited connectors increase in value the more players are in the pot.

According to PokerStove:

QT** v K7 = 52.155% favouring K7
QT** v K*7 = 53.296% favouring K*7
QT** v K7* = 52.776% favouring K7*

** means suited cards; * means that card shares the same suit as the comparison hand

BlondeFish · Oct 28,2007, 11:03 PM

Against unknown hands, QTs is a more playable hand than K7. In a full table, getting K7o UTG is an easy fold while QTs is good for a raise. Andy Bloch ranks QTs as the 19th best hand among the 169 possible two-card combinations, while K7o is ranked below average at 89th. The Sklansky-Chubukov ranking for QTs is 43.80946, while it is only 28.54118 for K7o. For example, if your stack is 30 times the BB and it is folded to you in the SB, it would be -EV for you to go all-in with only K7o, but +EV with a better hand such as QTs.

However, K7o has a better showdown value heads-up against QTs specifically. K7o would win slightly more often than QTs because many of the possible five-card boards will be unpaired, and high card (K) wins.

It is the same as AKo vs. 22. AKo is the fifth best hand in poker, but when somebody bet me which hand would win more heads-up, I immediately and gladly chose 22. I won the bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikleger

On most hand rankings I find QTs to be a much better hand than K7. However when facing one another in heads up, the king seven off suit actually has the edge. How can that be?

I've seen some reference for the QT suited as high as 18 on 169 and as low as 122 for the K7 offsuit. The 122 seems off but shouldnt QT suited get the edge?