How do you play in a hand when you flop the nuts?

The Prophet 22 · Mar 14,2006, 12:13 AM

Playing in a 1/2 cash game Qs Jc in the small blind I have everyone covered with 170.00. 3 people limp in for 2.00. I call and the BB checks.

Flops comes JdQd QH

How do you preceed?Â* Does it matter if you are in a casino or on=line?

Prophet 22

SocietyRed · Mar 14,2006, 12:28 AM

Hold on to your nutz, slow play and hope no one draws out on you.

ScoobyD · Mar 14,2006, 12:36 AM

Depends on what you think of your opponents. I don't think leading the betting is horribly wrong on that flop. I'd keep it cheap, and hoping to price in the straight and flush draws to come along (and then when they hit they're dead). Of course if you're lucky enough for someone to have the other Q, they may well play back as well. The great thing about that flop, is that it is likely to at least have partially hit some of the other players.

jpajamas · Mar 14,2006, 12:54 AM

smooooth!

ScottyZ · Mar 14,2006, 06:01 AM

I'm assuming this is NL with 1-2 blinds.

I would bet $10.

The key idea here for me is that I need to win as many chips as possible from an opponent who may be slowplaying. The fact that some kind of draw might also come along is additional gravy, but with this particular flop I realize that I am mostly only going to get paid off by someone who has flopped something. I'd prefer to start building the pot right away using medium sized bets with anyone who's holding the other Q, rather than trying to score only a large overbet later on in the hand.1 Plus, you may also be able to pick up any loose callers while cards are still to come for them to build hopes and dreams on.

The nice side effect of betting out is that very few people will read you for having floppped the nuts. Strong means strong confuses many opponents.

People often slowplay a hand like this for the rest of their lives after, during one particular hand, they had bet out on this kind of flop and everyone folded. This is the bizzare nature of the poker learning process.

ScottyZ

1Which is not to say that I won't try to win a large overbet later on after already having put in a couple of medium sized bets first.

Metro · Mar 14,2006, 08:09 AM

I agree with the fact you need to know the other players.

If you have the person that wont be pushed of a pot - you need to value bet.

If you have the guy that will throw in the continuation bet post-flop let him bet and cold call him. I like to keep as many players around as possible on flop in this situation. Let people catch up - hopefully someone will have a flush draw; a str8 draw; the other unpaired Q; or a J. At this point some players will think their A high is good.

Use your check raise on the turn and bet the river. The know the Check-Call, Check-Raise, Bet announces a monster - many players arent that bright and will toss in bets anyhow.

On a side not I would probably throw in a quick prayer to the guy upstairs for another player to have JJ

The Prophet 22 · Mar 14,2006, 10:00 AM

Twice previously I had made a bet of 12.00 and people folded after flopping a set or raising with two pair. I guess I thought any bet here 10, 12 15 and it's folded around. Like I said happen twice. I was hoping one of the other players would take the lead as I had folded on at least a few occasions when others bet, but hear was looking for the check raise option on the flop to find out who the players were. At that point 8 dollars didn't seem like a lot for that flop. I checked and the turn came

. Bingo someone has the flush and someone has a straight and maybe the guy who is slow playing his trip Queens is hoping the board will pair.

THe bet 15.00 which at this table was very standard as people would fold and maybe a caller or two.

Everyone called.

River

5 players in

How to proceed from here?

Prophet 22

DrTyore · Mar 14,2006, 10:05 AM

Check / call if it's not too pricey... you're likely beat.

Mark

Metro · Mar 14,2006, 12:19 PM

The only hand calling you here is the one that beats you.

Before you were playing the nuts - now your not and it will cost you a lot of cash if you dont adjust.

Pinhead · Mar 14,2006, 12:48 PM

Why are we so quick to assume the NUT full house is beat
You lose to 2 single cards in the whole deck, and unless you have a massive tell on your opponents
I don't think you should immediately put somebody on either the Kd or 8d.

Yes it is reasonable that they would have one of these hands, but this isn't PLO guys, you don't have
to run hiding everytime you don't have the mortal nuts.

If you bet here do you really not think QT or even the Ad is going going to call you? Q9? JJ??
All of these hands are perfectly reasonable holdings for your opponents.

Now if you bet and get raised, that becomes totally dependant on your read of that player, but I don't see
how check-call is the best line for your hand. I'm not suggesting you get into a raising war on the river here,
but what are you going to do if you check and the BB leads out, and gets a couple callers around the table?
Do you call then or do you assume you're beat by the guy with the 8d who is scared of the Kd? Or do you
call and then kick yourself when you get shown a pile of weaker full houses and the A high flush?

FWIW this would be totally dependent on the players at the table for me. If these are any of the players I know
you play with Brent, I'm betting the nut FH and expect to get raised on the river by any 2 cards. Of course, since
you are posting this hand, I have to assume you ran into the Kd after betting out here

As a side note, when I can get 4 players to call a $15 bet into a $10 pot on a Qh QJ9dÂ* board, where at best they
are drawing to one or two collective outs, I'm never leaving this game, ever.

Metro · Mar 14,2006, 01:39 PM

I am not saying I would fold this hand - I would even call a raise - as you mentioned it is not Omaha.

But if it is checked around to me I may just call - instead of getting check raised by the 8 or K of diamonds.

Pinhead · Mar 14,2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNORTH

I am not saying I would fold this hand - I would even call a raise - as you mentioned it is not Omaha.

But if it is checked around to me I may just call - instead of getting check raised by the 8 or K of diamonds.

He is the SB and is first to act here. This is a tricky situation where 5 handed there is some chance you are not
ahead,
If there are a lot of action nuts at the table who are likely to bet any 2 cards if it gets checked to them, I will
check and let them fire away. With 5 players in the hand, my action is going to depend almost entirely on
the types of players, and their relative positions around the table. If the BB is a real LAG and will bet if you check,
you're going to find out if you beat the other 3 players before the action gets back to you, as I doubt anybody is
just going to call here with a SF, and even if they do, you close the action this way

If more of the players left in the hand are likely to call with a huge range of hands, then I do not want to miss an
opportunity to get in a good bet here. If I get raised by a passive player, I know I'm beat and should fold1
but I thikn it is far more likely that I get paid off by a range of hands that I do beat.

1 This does not mean for a second that I'm likely to fold this hand unless the most passive player I've ever
seen moves in on the river for about 100x the pot size. Ok, I may fold for less, but it would not be easy at all.

Metro · Mar 14,2006, 03:04 PM

Sorry I missed that he was SB.

What bet would you throw out in this situation - if considered a random mix of players at the table. Lets assume the super tight player is not there (considering a Super Tight player would be unlikely to have called with the Kd unless he had AKd or KK and he doesnt have the 8d unless its matched with the Ad.)

Ceteris paribus, what is your bet?

Pinhead · Mar 14,2006, 03:31 PM

Assuming the stacks are deep enough that any bet doesn't pot commit me, then I'd bet
about half the pot. For example if I only have 3/4 of the pot left, then I just push.

I'll agree with you that a super tight player isn't likely to be in the hand at the river, but there
is a big difference between super tight and super passive. I was talkiing about what I would do
if a super passive (never raises) wakes up on the river, in which case you might be ahead one time
in a billion or so hands.

pkrfce9 · Mar 14,2006, 03:54 PM

With 4 diamonds on the board, what kind of hand will call any substantial bet? I doubt any diamond below 5d calls. Adx, maybe a hand with 5d or better in it would call. 99, TT are on the fence between call and raise I think. For sure Kdx, 8dx, QJ, Q9 or QT will raise. You are only behind 2 of these hands.

I'd be looking to get paid off so I'd probably bet the pot and call a reasonable re-raise. A massive reraise I'd have to think long and hard about before I'd fold. I don't know if I could ever get away from this. Poker sucks that way sometimes.