I cant fold pocket kings right?

kidpoker · Jan 30,2007, 10:01 PM

Ok i was playin in a tourney tonight at one of the "clubs" and i had just tripled up from being short stacked, the blinds are 100/200 and i tripled up to 3500, not the next hand the bounty guy goes all in for like 2200 and then a guy reraises all in for another 900, so if i call i will be left with 400, everyone folds to me on the button i look down and low and behold , cowboys!!! Now at first im like convincing myself to fold cuz i just got these chips, but then i said " are you retarded" , and called. First raiser had A J off, reraiser had QQ's so i had the best hand , great cal can triple up and be chip leader, what happens the guy spikes a Q on the flop.
Now looking back , can I fold this hand, seriously?

DrTyore · Jan 30,2007, 10:25 PM

You're really asking this?

I mean, come on...

Seriously.

You have two all ins in front of you.

I ONLY call with AA here, well, actually A-Joker too..

Don't be dumb... KK is worth the double call barring any reads where the second all in guy is from Milton or something... damned rocks.

Disguised bad beat post? Disguised bad beat post.

Mark

BlondeFish · Jan 30,2007, 10:38 PM

You cannot fold K-K pre-flop (unless you get a whole set of indicators such as outlined by Phil Gordon that the 2% chance of an opponent having A-A has occured). You made the correct call and in this case, you were a 76% favourite to win.

Folding K-K pre-flop would be almost as bad as folding A-A just because there is a multi-way all-in. A player I used to respect still insists that he was correct in folding A-A pre-flop when everybody was in-the-money and went all in.

QueenNine · Jan 30,2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlondeFish

A player I used to respect still insists that he was correct in folding A-A pre-flop when everybody was in-the-money and went all in.

I am not condoning folding AA preflop, but how many other all ins were there in front of him? Did his AA hold up? Doubtful if there were 3 or 4 in the pot.

BlondeFish · Jan 31,2007, 02:03 AM

It does NOT matter. If NINE players go all-in at the first hand of the WPT NAPC in October, I will gladly call with A-A. Even if I think that I only have 4:1 odds of winning, the pot odds of 9:1 makes it a no-brainer call for me. I will be willing to risk going out on the first hand in a $10,000 buy-in event for the decent chance that I will have ten times as many chips as everybody else and have a high $ EV.

For results-oriented players, losing with A-A as in my friend's 4-player case will reinforce their mistaken belief that folding A-A is correct. After all but one of our poker buddies agreed with my friend about folding A-A,

my friend wanted me to ask the forum experts such as magithighs, but I didn't want to waste his time at last week's BCC Winter Classic tournament on such a relatively simple A-A situation. If a player can't understand that folding the best possible hand pre-flop is a tragedy, I want that player at my table!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDSGuy

how many other all ins were there in front of him? Did his AA hold up? Doubtful if there were 3 or 4 in the pot.

AcidJoe · Jan 31,2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlondeFish

Folding K-K pre-flop would be almost as bad as folding A-A just because there is a multi-way all-in. A player I used to respect still insists that he was correct in folding A-A pre-flop when everybody was in-the-money and went all in.

Sorry Blondefish what were the payouts? If 3 or 4 people got knocked out and that meant a substatially larger payout for him then in his mind it was a correct move. He was playing for money and not to win. IF my 2 choices were a call and get 10K if i'm out or fold and hopefully 4 people get eliminated and I get 100K I'd fold. There's more to whether it's a good fold or bad fold than pot odds, the payouts have a lot to do with it.

Nayr_Eh · Jan 31,2007, 05:29 AM

You can't lay down KKs pre flop. reguardless or who is all in front of you. Your playing to win not cash two spots higher. Good call I couldn't lay em down.

pokerJAH · Jan 31,2007, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlondeFish

You cannot fold K-K pre-flop (unless you get a whole set of indicators such as outlined by Phil Gordon that the 2% chance of an opponent having A-A has occured).

I think in Angel's book it states that you have about a 13% chance of another player having AA when you have KK at a full table. I will have to double check unless someone else has a copy of his book handy. I have run into AA a couple of times with KK. In any case, I would definitely call all-in with KK pre-flop. You got to figure one of your opponents has an Ace so he only has three outs realistically (ignoring the straight or flush). 3 of of 47 is pretty good, unless you are facing AA and then you are dominated.

Big E · Jan 31,2007, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlondeFish

You cannot fold K-K pre-flop (unless you get a whole set of indicators such as outlined by Phil Gordon that the 2% chance of an opponent having A-A has occured).

Thank you for making me laugh so hard today...and I thought this would just be another boring old Wednesday.

Metro · Jan 31,2007, 11:39 AM

I was playing in a Ring game (.25/.50)on Stars the other day when the following situation arouse.

I was in SB.

Preflop it was folded to the Button who raised to $2.

I have KK and raise to $6.

The Big Blind smooth calls.

The Button re-raises all-in (a bet of $12 for a total of $18).

I re-raise all-in (to a total of about $60) - I dont want AK coming in for free.

The Big Blind called the $60.

Flop is a bunch of rags.

Button: QQ
SB (me): KK
BB (drooling): AA

No one improves.

I would make this same play 1000 times and have no problems with it.

Just look at your screen, shake your head and keep playing.

Oh - and laugh at all the other donks who werent even in the hand who spend the next 30mins talking about how Poker Stars is rigged.

cadillac · Jan 31,2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNORTH

I was playing in a Ring game (.25/.50)on Stars the other day when the following situation arouse.

I was in SB.

Preflop it was folded to the Button who raised to $2.

I have KK and raise to $6.

The Big Blind smooth calls.

The Button re-raises all-in (a bet of $12 for a total of $18).

I re-raise all-in (to a total of about $60) - I dont want AK coming in for free.

The Big Blind called the $60.

Flop is a bunch of rags.

Button: QQ
SB (me): KK
BB (drooling): AA

No one improves.

I would make this same play 1000 times and have no problems with it.

Just look at your screen, shake your head and keep playing.

Oh - and laugh at all the other donks who werent even in the hand who spend the next 30mins talking about how Poker Stars is rigged.

Applause

You sir have the right idea and the right attitude!

Cheers

Caddy

BlondeFish · Feb 01,2007, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcidJoe

There's more to whether it's a good fold or bad fold than pot odds, the payouts have a lot to do with it.

Exactly, it's the steep structure of prize payouts that make it such a no-brainer call. One's goal should be to maximize profit or expected value. With first place getting much of the money, you can't ask for a better chance than with everybody going all in and you having the best hand. For those that want to go through the calculations to understand how costly a blunder folding A-A was, let's say that the prize payouts were 40% or $400 for 1st, $200 for 2nd, $150 for 3rd, $100 for 4th and $50 for 5th; assume that my friend had 10,000 in chips, the 2 bigger stacks had 15,000 and the 2 small stacks had 5,000 chips each. I've previously posted mathematical proof of situations involving A-A, so somebody else who doesn't believe me can do it this time.

For those that don't want to do any calculations, just remember the following:
Play to WIN, not to survive.
Play to WIN, not to be second place.
Play to WIN, not to be in-the-money.
Play to WIN, not to move up the ladder.
Play to WIN, not to make it to the next day.
Play to WIN, don't fold A-A pre-flop!

AcidJoe · Feb 01,2007, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlondeFish

Exactly, it's the steep structure of prize payouts that make it such a no-brainer call.
For those that don't want to do any calculations, just remember the following:
Play to WIN, not to survive.
Play to WIN, not to be second place.
Play to WIN, not to be in-the-money.
Play to WIN, not to move up the ladder.
Play to WIN, not to make it to the next day.
Play to WIN, don't fold A-A pre-flop!

I agree with the play to win, however let's use the WSOP payouts would I call a whole final table all in regardless of my chips with AA or KK. I"d really have to think about it.

With the payouts being:
1 - $12,000,000
2 - $6,102,499
3 - $4,123,310
4 - $3,628,513
5 - $3,216,182
6 - $2,803,851
7 - $2,391,520
8 - $1,979,189
9 - $1,566,858

Would I risk crippling myself if I'm in 7th right now with an 8 way all in in front, probably no. That being said I'm a gambler and if my mindset is if I win this I"m freerolling to 12 mill I might. If 3 or 4 go out I"m making large coin doubling my payday. If I was in 9th I'd be an idiot not to call this. IN WSOP or WPT events the money is key for any non pro.

QueenNine · Feb 01,2007, 07:28 AM

Blondefish, I am not saying I would fold AA preflop, I am arguing the point of you losing respect for someone just because they did.

Sometimes it's not all about the rake and blind structure and prize ladder. Sometimes it's all about making the correct call based on your FEEL of the game.

I ask again, how did your friend (who you have no respect for) do the rest of the way in the tourny?

Bobsi38127 · Feb 01,2007, 08:07 AM

1st of all if Pokerstars was rigged the flop would be Q,K,A, lol 2nd what are Phil Gordon's indicators for some1 having aces?? and 3rd there is no more depressing feeling than having KK and seeing those evil AAs shown by some arrogant twit across the table who makes the same play w/AK and generates equally as many tells like he has the nuts. I'd say an indicator that sum1 has aces, I've seen it a lot online or offline is when the person limps in and makes an astronomical all in when someone makes a marginal position raise say "$2 to $12 then the $12 limper goes over the top for $300".