JTs Option on the BB

ScottyZ · Sep 19,2004, 09:39 PM

Loose-passive low-limit holdem. You have JTs on the BB. Four players call, and the SB also calls.

Check or raise?

What if you had 66 instead?

ScottyZ

Big J · Sep 19,2004, 10:05 PM

I like raising with the JTs more than I like raising with 66...the JTs has alot more flops that help it, and if you do get a good flop you might as well get as many chips out of the fish as you can.

I was talking with the oldtimer who was sitting next to me in the tournament I played at the casino yesterday about JTs and he told me that back in the day before all the mathematicans and computer scientists got involved, Jts was considered by most to be the best starting hand in Hold 'Em.

professor · Sep 19,2004, 11:22 PM

check either one. you know no-one will fold for one more bet,
there will be overcards, you'll have to hit either hand.

professor · Sep 19,2004, 11:23 PM

raise either one. mix up your play. no-one will be able to put
you on a hand.

BBC Z · Sep 19,2004, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by professor

raise either one. mix up your play. no-one will be able to put
you on a hand.

He said low limit poker... Most opponents don't even realise that you get delt two cards.. If he's raising, its primarily for value not image.

Paul3221 · Sep 20,2004, 10:49 AM

I would just check on either one. In low limit, you're not going to get anyone to fold, and you're probably just dumping more money into a hand that's not great unless the flop hits it. I used to play those sorts of hands more aggressively trying to thin the herd, but I just ended up losing more money to chasers.

If the Flop does hit though, you can get a ton of money out of it, because most of them still won't fold.

all_aces · Sep 20,2004, 12:38 PM

TJs... six of you in... I'd consider raising for value here. Realistically though, I'd probably check.

66... six of you in... I'd check. You want as many players in as possible if you hit your 6 on the flop, so you don't want to lose anybody by raising. However, since it's low-limit, we can assume that nobody will fold to a raise, even if it is from a tight player in the BB, so you probably wouldn't lose anyone anyways. Nonetheless, you're in bad position to bluff at a flop that doesn't have a six (and most of course won't) if you raise preflop, so I'd check.

Regards,
all_aces

ScottyZ · Sep 20,2004, 01:24 PM

Thanks for the comments so far.

Some people have mentioned this already, but to add a little more focus to the question, I think we can assume that all players will call for one more bet if you do decide to raise. Also assume that the chances of getting re-raised pre-flop are effectively nil.

ScottyZ

Hork42 · Sep 20,2004, 04:39 PM

I'd limp with JTs. JTs is a better than average hand against 5 players, but is not likely to be the best preflop. After the flop you're in EP so that gives you a bit of a disadvantage to 4 of the 5 other players. I guess it depends on what you want to flop. Sure, a flush or straight draw would be nice, but if you don't get that and a J or T hit the flop you have 1 pair (mediocre kicker)

Low limit players will generally play anything, so you can lead out the betting.. Due to the passiveness of the game, someone with a better kicker, (QT, KJ, etc) may call you down the whole way. Now, where does your hand stand?
You'll get people with AJ calling all the way, I'll also get people with 74 calling all the way. Sometimes you can tell the difference between these players, sometimes you cannot...

Change the scenario to the button and I might raise with JTs.

With 66 I will check or limp from any position.

Phred · Sep 21,2004, 04:55 AM

Raise pre-flop on both. As others have noted, no one is going to fold for one more bet. If you hit the flop, jam the pot as far, and as fast, as you can. Play aggressive and force those chasers to think. Then, let them think harder while you stack what used to be "their" chips.

BBC Z · Sep 21,2004, 10:10 AM

Assuming you were up against some typical hands at a low limit table..

Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Ts 213148 25.06 636606 74.84 914 0.11 0.251
Kd 9h 77496 9.11 765792 90.02 7380 0.87 0.095
As 4d 209415 24.62 640339 75.27 914 0.11 0.246
8h 7h 171782 20.19 677972 79.70 914 0.11 0.202
Kc Qh 171447 20.15 671841 78.98 7380 0.87 0.206

Looks like a variance increasing raise to me.. You may have a slight edge but I highly doubt you've got the best hand preflop. Check the BB, see the flop for cheap. Your callers aren't folding if they catch any piece and you flop a monster anyway.

ScottyZ · Sep 21,2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Looks like a variance increasing raise to me

It probably is. Do we care about variance in cash games?

Quote:

I highly doubt you've got the best hand preflop

A bizzare thing to say after you've just shown us an example of a hand where JTs *is* the best hand against some "typical [low-limit] hands" pre-flop.

ScottyZ

BBC Z · Sep 21,2004, 10:29 AM

Quote:

It probably is. Do we care about variance in cash games?

I do. I don't like my bankroll taking wild swings for very marginal +EV plays. Thats just my personal preference.

Quote:

A bizzare thing to say after you've just shown us an example of a hand where JTs *is* the best hand against some "typical [low-limit] hands" pre-flop.

Yes, except those hands that I posted are probably your best case scenario. Which means AT BEST you MIGHT have a very small chance at having the best hand.

ScottyZ · Sep 21,2004, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Yes, except those hands that I posted are probably your best case scenario.

Fair enough. I guess it threw me off when you originally called them "typical".

Quote:

Which means AT BEST you MIGHT have a very small chance at having the best hand.

I guess getting at whether or not this is the case is the real guts of the original question, right?

Also, besides just hot-and-cold pot equity, should implied odds and/or effective odds be a consideration?

ScottyZ

BBC Z · Sep 21,2004, 11:16 AM

Quote:

I guess getting at whether or not this is the case is the real guts of the original question, right?

I think one of the benefits of a loose-passive game (calling stations) is being able to see cheap flops with marginal hands.. raising will get more money into the pot but it will also commit you to playing farther along in the hand than you may like to.. I find it far easier to dump a hand when I didn't raise than when I did (I'd usually bet the flop regardless).

Quote:

Also, besides just hot-and-cold pot equity, should implied odds and/or effective odds be a consideration?

I'm not a big fan of implied odds in limit poker because you can't really take anyones stack when your hand hits.. I really only use implied odds when I'm on a draw thats offering me slightly less than required odds..