I was going to post a question about the legality of home poker games but decided to do a search first to make sure I wasn't being a forum donk... and I found some older threads on the topic. But after reading them, I recognized that there was (in some cases) a lot of arguing and lack of clarity on the subject.
I realize that what I'm saying has already been said on this forum, and it's obvious that most people here are well-informed on the subject, but because the facts seemed buried within a lot of debate, I thought it would be helpful to have a quick summary of the law in Canada as it relates to home poker games... and I want to run it by you all to make sure I've got it right, so if I've got it wrong, please let me know.
Background:
I used to attend a friend's game which grew to two tables, then too many people started showing.
I have a big loft so we moved the game to my place, where we usually have 3 to 5 tables playing tournament style, about once a month or so. Everyone is a friend -- or friend of a friend. We play tunes, have fun, BYOB etc. so it's as much a social thing as it is a poker tournament. For the past two years, I've been hosting this game regularly in downtown Toronto. No rake, no entry fee... the buy-in, re-buys and top-ups go into the night's prize pool and if we, say, order pizza, it comes out of the prize pool.
What my research has found about the Law with respect to home poker games:
The relevant Criminal Code is Part VII " Disorderly houses, Gaming and Betting".
The relevant sections of Part VII are sections 197, 201, 204.
Section 197:
This section gives definitions. Under the definitions, a home used for a poker game would fall under the definition of either a "common betting house", or a "common gaming house", depending on how the game is run. Both of these fall under the more general definition of a "disorderly house", which also includes a "common bawdy-house".
Thankfully, Section 197 states that an exemption for these definitions exists when: (1) the keeper of the house does not get any portion of the bets, (2) he does he charge the participants of the games played therein any fee to play or enter the house.
Section 201:
This section simply states that any keeper of a common betting house or common gaming house is guilty of an indictable offense, as well as any persons found on the premises of such a house. The maximum sentence if found guilty is up to two years.
Section 204:
This is the critical part of the Criminal Code (for us) that allows home poker games to be conducted legally.
Two explicit exemptions are already found in Section 197's definitions relating to common betting/ gaming houses, but Section 204 provides a broader exemption to offenses under Section 201, by allowing for "private bets between individuals not engaged in any way in the business of betting".
Interpretation:
The interpretation of the Criminal Code, Part VII, s.197, s.204 used by the courts and by the police (as far as I know) is as follows:
Home games are legal, provided that the host ("house") doesn't make a business of it, that is, as long as the host (or anyone else involved) doesn't take a rake, charge an entry fee, make money from it, or profits from it in any way.
Question to the forum:
Is my take on this correct? This is what I'm going by... so I hope it's right.
Thanks.
Yes. With a lot of my friends charged as found-ins in a common gaming house and have court dates this month, it no longer makes sense to me to play in illegal raked games, but I regularly play in rake-free 100%-legal home games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightspeed
Home games are legal, provided that the host ("house") doesn't make a business of it, that is, as long as the host (or anyone else involved) doesn't take a rake, charge an entry fee, make money from it, or profits from it in any way. Question to the forum:
Is my take on this correct?
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May your EV always be positive.
But I think taking the pizza out of the prize pool could be a sticky subject... might I suggest just collecting $ separately, so you can definitively say that in no way was any monies removed from the prize pool?
Mark
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Life's usually simple, just not always easy
But I think taking the pizza out of the prize pool could be a sticky subject... might I suggest just collecting $ separately, so you can definitively say that in no way was any monies removed from the prize pool?
Mark
I think even collecting the money to collectively order the food is an issue.. I'd suggest each player bring their own snacks pot-luck style... nothing stops a few guys from ordering pizza for the group..
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"...the monkey looks to make sure we are not playing limit at Brantford." - Redington
I have never understood why people who have a regular home game (that is ACTUALLY in a home) feel the need to post these sorts of threads. Unless you have a large game (and I think the OP is getting close), why would you even think that the authorities would know about it? Much less care? I just do not see the point. Host your game, host it how you like, keep things sociable, and there should be no hassles.
But thats just me . . .
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I don't gamble . . . but I will bet.
I have never understood why people who have a regular home game (that is ACTUALLY in a home) feel the need to post these sorts of threads. Unless you have a large game (and I think the OP is getting close), why would you even think that the authorities would know about it? Much less care? I just do not see the point. Host your game, host it how you like, keep things sociable, and there should be no hassles.
But thats just me . . .
Well this is just me, but I never understood why people who aren't interested in a forum topic feel the need to question the legitimacy of the topic itself. Especially when they can just move on and read something else.
I think this question is legitimate.
I have up to five tables... that's close to 50 people in a loft apartment, with lots of noise, foot traffic, music and cash. If a player or a neighbour is unhappy for some reason and decides to call the police and they show up at my door, I want to know where I stand.
To say that it won't happen and not to worry about it doesn't tell me where I stand should it happen, as unlikely as that might be.
The other comments are all very helpful. For example, not paying for the pizza from the prize pool or having guests bring pot luck food are great ideas... thanks.
Like I said, I just want to be certain that a rake-free home game is legal, and simply confirming or denying that I'm okay with my games as I've described them is very helpful to me, as well as to my guests.
Your home game sounds legal.
Taking money out for pizza doesn't make you a profit so I can't see how you would be charged.
The police seem to be interested in people who are making $100,000's of dollars from rake.
The money taken out of the payout is technically a rake... being used to pay for food.... This could be considered illegal.. I know it's nitpicky but it's not something you want to have to deal with at all, it's better to take in X dollars and pay out X dollars nothing missing.
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"...the monkey looks to make sure we are not playing limit at Brantford." - Redington
Well this is just me, but I never understood why people who aren't interested in a forum topic feel the need to question the legitimacy of the topic itself. Especially when they can just move on and read something else.
I think this question is legitimate.
I have up to five tables... that's close to 50 people in a loft apartment, with lots of noise, foot traffic, music and cash. If a player or a neighbour is unhappy for some reason and decides to call the police and they show up at my door, I want to know where I stand.
To say that it won't happen and not to worry about it doesn't tell me where I stand should it happen, as unlikely as that might be.
The other comments are all very helpful. For example, not paying for the pizza from the prize pool or having guests bring pot luck food are great ideas... thanks.
Like I said, I just want to be certain that a rake-free home game is legal, and simply confirming or denying that I'm okay with my games as I've described them is very helpful to me, as well as to my guests.
Again, thanks to everyone here.
Relax lightspeed. Nothing against you personally. As I said in my post, your game is approaching what I would consider the borderline (in size, anyway) where this is a legit concern. It is just that this crops up every few months or so. You pointed out in your OP that there are numerous threads on this already, and there always ends up beinga dispute at some point in the thread about what constitutes a "rake". This version might even have stayed rational enough, long enough, to justify being "stickied", who knows? Enjoy your game. By the way, what's the buy-in? And are you looking for more players?
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I don't gamble . . . but I will bet.
Relax lightspeed. Nothing against you personally. As I said in my post, your game is approaching what I would consider the borderline (in size, anyway) where this is a legit concern. It is just that this crops up every few months or so. You pointed out in your OP that there are numerous threads on this already, and there always ends up beinga dispute at some point in the thread about what constitutes a "rake". This version might even have stayed rational enough, long enough, to justify being "stickied", who knows? Enjoy your game. By the way, what's the buy-in? And are you looking for more players?
So you want to come to my game eh? If I stick around here and get to know y'all better, I'll shoot you a PM with details.
I figure poker players are a pretty competitive lot, so if I post a feeler question and you raise me, then I may just come over the top. You called --and I figure it's a chop...
But seriously, you made a good point before... if I can manage to keep everyone happy, then that's probably my best bet.
Thanks.
BTW, the buy-in is only 20 uh, "roses" for 1000 chips, but there's unlimited rebuys if you bust out in the first hour (same amounts)... and at the end of the first hour is an optional top-up for the same amount.
Blinds start at 10-20 and go up every 15 min. but the unlimited re-buys can make for some interesting play in the first hour. Usually people like to top-up so we've got an average of 40-60 "roses" per player in the prize pool -- payout is top 4. Antes kick in after 90 minutes and blinds go up fast enough that the final table gets down to heads up usually by around 1 or 2am. There are also lots of side game action and things morph into a sort of big party by around that time. About 5 to 1 ratio guys to gals.
Sounds interesting. Might have to hit an automated "flower" shop and make the trip in the New Year. Cannot have too many games to fall back on, after all.
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I don't gamble . . . but I will bet.
lol... sounds good Milo.
Just one word of warning I give to guys who come for the first time...
About 75% of the players understand advanced play (with a handful of semi-pro's who earn much their income from poker), and the other 25% are novices who are just there for a good time. Some of the serious players complain that the novices hurt their play with unexpected mistakes, bad calls and inevitable suckouts... but I say that part of the game is identifying everyone's skill level and adjusting play accordingly.
I know that seems obvious, but it's a subject that often comes up from the better players... so be forewarned.
There's another great 2-table home game (50 buy in) I go to weekly, all serious players -- most of us look at the game like a sort of training-ground for casino tournaments... so we have to focus on reads, table image and supressing our own tells -- and not just our betting patterns as in online play. Fallsview is just too far to drive to weekly, and I try to steer clear of the underground raked games, so I find the home games really fill a good niche in terms of regular practice against live players.
..decided to do a search first to make sure I wasn't being a forum donk...
I recognized that there was nothing giving me the answer I want to hear, so I re-posted anyway
Kudos for using the search feature and welcome to the forum..but I FYP
You're asking two different questions, here are your answers:
1. It IS illegal
2. Not likely that anyone (police) would ever give a shit about your home game that takes money out for pizza
As an aside, if you're sooo worried about the legality and have found inconsistencies here..why the fuck wouldn't you ask a lawyer?
I'm sorry, I realize that you aren't intentionally being obnoxious..but this is the most boring/annoying question on this forum..I wish we'd start an insta-delete for all threads on this subject, or Graham..ask a damn lawyer and sticky his response to the top of the section with a disclaimer.
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it no longer makes sense to me to play in illegal raked games, but I regularly play in rake-free 100%-legal home games.
If I stick around here and get to know y'all better, I'll shoot you a PM with details.
