What would you do (2 part Limit Hold'em question)

garro · Sep 22,2004, 05:30 PM

Part 1

3/6 limit stars table the other night. Fairly loose 9 player 4-6 almost always see a flop.

Not that it matters really, but I am having a nice winning session up about $75 after about 1.5 hours of play (I won a large pot with KK on a flopped set against a AK). I have taken no bad beats and only had to showdown twice both times with good hands.

I am dealt QQ and I am 1 seat behind the dealer. UTG calls and everyone folds (rare at this table) until it gets to me. I raise (making the bet $6 to go). The dealer and Small Blind fold Big Blind and UTG calls

FLOP

J:spade: Q:club: K:club:

BigBlind an UTG both quickly check.

Do you check or bet? Assume both players will call

EDITED TO END

On the turn a 9:spade: hits.

BigBlind Checks. UTG bets.

Fold, call or Raise?

ScottyZ · Sep 22,2004, 05:38 PM

Bet. It's safe to assume you have the best hand right now.

Is this a board you want to give a free card on?

ScottyZ

garro · Sep 22,2004, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Bet. It's safe to assume you have the best hand right now.

Is this a board you want to give a free card on?

Dohhhh! I just realized that this will not work the way I want it to. I am going to have to expand the 1st part and make the second part the very last round. It is a better question then.

MickeyHoldem · Sep 22,2004, 05:53 PM

BET... and hope you take the pot down right here... that is a scary lookin' board for you. Checking when you make trips on the flop can be a good play, but not on that board. Yikes!

Now... assuming both players call and the turn brings the 9:spade: ... you have to call... your getting great odds for the board to pair!! (5.5 to 1... or closer to 5 to 1 after the rake)

Assuming the river's a brick... you're probably beat... laying it down becomes an exercise in "knowing your opponent"

ScottyZ · Sep 22,2004, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Fold, Check or Raise?

I would definitely check if I could get away with it. Is that considered angle shooting? In this scenario, I think folding would be quite bad.

If it turns out the dealer is semi-conscious and doesn't let me check, I'd call here.

ScottyZ

garro · Sep 23,2004, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

I would definitely check if I could get away with it. Is that considered angle shooting? In this scenario, I think folding would be quite bad.

If it turns out the dealer is semi-conscious and doesn't let me check, I'd call here.

ScottyZ

Dohh again that should have read

Fold, call, Raise?

Anyhow part two is...

6:heart: hits the river. No help to any player. BB & UTG both quickly check

Fold, Check, Bet?

ScottyZ · Sep 23,2004, 12:42 PM

Check. It seems fairly unlikely that you have the best hand.

More importantly, if you bet, I think you're not all that likely to get called by a worse hand. This line of thinking is the *exception* rather than the rule at LL of course. But I think in this example, there's nothing that suggests to me that a value bet is called for here.

ScottyZ

garro · Sep 24,2004, 10:05 AM

Well you'll be ashamed to know that I played that hand wrong every step of the way except pre and post flop. LOL.

I did raise and then bet the flop. And the bet was called by both players

What happen was when the turn hit, and he bet. I raised and was called by both players.

After the river when it was checked to me. I bet again and was called by both players. The BB had JJ and the UTG had Q9. So even though I did everything wrong I got paid off. As emberassing as it is.

When I was going through my notes for that night I realized that I was so focused on my trips that I played like I was a "stuped" (I like that word from an early post I saw today), and blanked on seeing the obvious straight on the table.

I just got lucky that neither player had a 10, and lucky that they thought their hands were good enough to keep on playing.

BBC Z · Sep 24,2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garro

Well you'll be ashamed to know that I played that hand wrong every step of the way except pre and post flop. LOL.

I did raise and then bet the flop. And the bet was called by both players

What happen was when the turn hit, and he bet. I raised and was called by both players.

After the river when it was checked to me. I bet again and was called by both players. The BB had JJ and the UTG had Q9. So even though I did everything wrong I got paid off. As emberassing as it is.

When I was going through my notes for that night I realized that I was so focused on my trips that I played like I was a "stuped" (I like that word from an early post I saw today), and blanked on seeing the obvious straight on the table.

I just got lucky that neither player had a 10, and lucky that they thought their hands were good enough to keep on playing.

I dont know why you thought you played it so terribley.. When you raised on the turn, if he pops you back you KNOW you are beat with a ten and can fold (which is the bet you would have used to call the river). I guess you'd probably prefer to call that single bet on the river with some % chance of winning than having to fold the turn but it's still not a bad play...

The only marginal play was the bet on the river, the guy with the T could just be scared of AT..

garro · Sep 24,2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC Z

I dont know why you thought you played it so terribley.. When you raised on the turn, if he pops you back you KNOW you are beat with a ten and can fold (which is the bet you would have used to call the river). I guess you'd probably prefer to call that single bet on the river with some % chance of winning than having to fold the turn but it's still not a bad play...

The only marginal play was the bet on the river, the guy with the T could just be scared of AT..

It was mostly my mis-read of the board I was so critical of. When I was involved in that hand I only saw my "Trips", I did not see the board for what it could be, I only saw my hand for what it was. Which frankly is a mistake that had this been for larger stakes could have cost me. With that board there were several hands that could have had me beat, that those player would have been willing to play.

ScottyZ · Sep 24,2004, 10:54 AM

Quote:

When you raised on the turn, if he pops you back you KNOW you are beat with a ten and can fold (which is the bet you would have used to call the river).

I'd prefer to use the 2 turn bets to instead call the turn and call the river. I'm not ready to make a big laydown with this strong of a hand if it's going to be one bet to me on the turn and one bet on the river.

Playing it this way, I *still* know I am beat if the action goes 2 bets on either the turn or the river.

Raising the turn is too aggressive I think.

ScottyZ

BBC Z · Sep 24,2004, 01:06 PM

Quote:

When you raised on the turn, if he pops you back you KNOW you are beat with a ten and can fold

I don't know what the hell I was smoking when I wrote that but, theres no way I'd fold that boat draw on the turn for 3 bets.. He'd be getting 2 to 1 bet odds which are slightly worse than the 9 outer boat draw (4 to 1), but I think the extra bets already in the pot would cover the call on the turn. Toss in the implied odds river calls and I still think it's an ok play.

Higher variance yes. Moronic fishy raise, no. I think it's a decision you can make based on personal preference and playing style.

ScottyZ · Sep 24,2004, 03:28 PM

Quote:

theres no way I'd fold that boat draw on the turn for 3 bets [i.e. one more bet]

Agreed, I think calling one more bet is going to make sense even if you raised yourself and got re-raised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Playing it this way, I *still* know I am beat if the action goes 2 bets on either the turn or the river.

And playing it this way (i.e. planning to call turn, call river), I think I'd probably still have to call twice on the turn if it was only one bet to me each time. The only way I could *maybe* drop on the turn would be if it went check-bet-call-raise-raise since I'd be facing a probable cap. It *still* might even be close enough to chase for 3 more turn bets.

ScottyZ

garro · Sep 24,2004, 03:50 PM

Very interesting hearing you two talk about this hand. I recently picked up (I should say finally) Winning Low limit Hold'em in an attempt to learn something other than NL Tournament Style.

I decided to really make the effort to master the Hold'em ring games, since the biggest hold'em games are actually limit games. Also I have read time and time again that if you cannot beat the Low-Limit tables, you probably do not have much of a chance at beating the higher limits.

So it is interesting that perhaps I didn't play as badly as I thought, but still as I said earlier my big flaw was not reading/paying attention to the board at all. I only realized it when I loaded my stuff into pokertracker that night and analyzed my play, and realized that it was 1 card to make the straight and not 2 as I believe I thought at the time (thats what I get for playing too many tables at once). An amature mistake IMHO. Still best to learn at levels where you can afford to loose than at levels where you cannot.

MickeyHoldem · Sep 26,2004, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Still best to learn at levels where you can afford to loose than at levels where you cannot.

One should never play at any level where you cannot afford to lose!!!