Brantford 5-10 hand: Could I have extracted more value?

ScottyZ · Jul 27,2004, 04:38 PM

Here's a hand from the weekend that I've been thinking about quite a bit. My initial reaction was that I might have been able to extract more value, but now I'm not sure I could have won any more money here.

Both opponents that went to the end of the hand are fairly aggressive O-fish, who rarely bluff; but, being O-fish, are often sort of bluffing by betting very weak hands or draws.

I get a free play with A5o in the BB. The SB has folded, and there are 4 or 5 players in.

Flop A94 rainbow. I check, UTG bets, 2nd UTG calls, the rest fold to me. Against typical, solid, or unknown players I have an easy fold here. However, I have seen the UTG open with the flop betting with an enormous range of hands, anything from middle pair/undercard kicker to a straight draw to a pocket underpair. The 2nd UTG had been somewhat aggressive (but still an O-Fish), so her calling suggests she does not have an Ace. I call with my cheese, thinking there's a reasonable chance that it is good. These players will not be pushed out with a flop check-raise. It's 5-10.

Turn is my happy card, a 5 completing the rainbow. I check again, going for the check-raise here. I am quite sure the UTG will bet again, since I haven't seen him voluntarily slow down his betting when he faces no aggression. To my surprise, delight, and sparking the tiniest hint of fear, 2nd UTG raises. This indicates that she has either been slowplaying a monster (not too likely), or the 5 has helped her (a little more likely). I decide to simply call. UTG calls.

River is a Q. I check and call, UTG calls.

I think the way I played the turn and river was *far* more passive than I usually would, but I feel it may have been right to do so in order to keep the UTG on the hook for another 2 big bets. Any thoughts?

Some specific questions:

1. What does the 2nd UTG have?

Answer in Rot-13: Gur unaq fur npghnyyl unq jnf sbhe svir fhvgrq.

2. Would you have made it 3 bets on the turn?

3. Would you have check-raised the river? Or bet out instead of checking?

ScottyZ

stpboy · Jul 27,2004, 04:54 PM

I find myself susceptible to tilt at times so I play rather passively when there is a raise in front of me or a scare card on the turn or river. I would have played it the same way as you did. I try to avoid situations where I am re-raising when I only have two pair, especially when my bottom pair is a low card. I guess I put the 2nd player on AK, AQ (which would obviously make the Q a scare card for me). Even though I agree with labelling your opponents when you have them read well, I always try to remind myself that even the fishiest fish can get nice cards/flops. I never underestimate my opponents, who here hasn't been beaten by a fish? A small win is WAY better then a big loss everytime.

stp

ScottyZ · Jul 27,2004, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Even though I agree with labelling your opponents when you have them read well, I always try to remind myself that even the fishiest fish can get nice cards/flops.

This is a great point, and I think as the hand was playing out in real time, this probably more accurately describes my reasoning for slowing down on the turn. I sort of remember thinking something along the lines of, "I don't see many hands she could have that beat me which make sense, but she could very well have something which doesn't make sense."

ScottyZ

all_aces · Jul 28,2004, 01:34 PM

Hey Scotty,

I like the way you played the turn. That's enough action for your 2 pair. As for the river, I probably would have bet out. I like to bet out on the river with hands that are probably good. It beats check-raising, because--to an extent--you can limit the action. IMHO it also beats check-calling, because you don't want it to be checked around. There are two reasons why it would get checked around: first of all, maybe 2nd UTG was on a complete steal. Although, a turn bluff-raise seems very unlikely given your description of that player. Second, maybe 2nd UTG has an OK hand, but didn't expect 2 callers on the turn after his/her raise, and wants to slow down (stop) now. Especially after you called 2 cold.

Here's an example of betting out on the river from a 30/60 hand last night:

I have AK in MP and raise, only LP calls.
Flop: AK8. Bet, call.
Turn: 3. Bet, raise, call.
River: 9. Bet, raise, call.

LP had pocket eights. So, it didn't work that time. But, I'm glad I didn't check-raise the river, and I think my hand got exactly the amount of action it wanted, if that makes any sense. 2 pair is good, but not great.

So, my answers to your questions:

1: 2nd UTG has 45, probably s00ted. I forget where to go for Rot-13, so an English translation would be appreciated.

2: I would have played the turn exactly as you did.

3: As mentioned, I would have bet out on the river.

Regards,
all_aces

ScottyZ · Jul 28,2004, 01:41 PM

Quote:

1: 2nd UTG has 45, probably s00ted. I forget where to go for Rot-13, so an English translation would be appreciated.

Try

www.rot13.com

Awesoma Powaaaa!

Good guess, BTW.

ScottyZ

all_aces · Jul 28,2004, 01:49 PM

We all get lucky sometimes...

Regards,
all_aces

Jay · Jul 28,2004, 08:12 PM

Was 2ND UTG an old Asian lady? For some reason I think you're describing someone I used to play against almost every session at the $5/$10.

Anyways, if it was her then I'd definitely know that she has two pairs or better. She likes to see the turn for one bet and if she catches she'll get aggressive with it. Since I know how she plays, calling two bets instead of making it three is the right play because overcalling will induce UTG to pay one more bet to see the river. Then I would check-raise the river if a harmless looking card falls, but 2ND UTG might even re-raise you if she thinks her hand is good. My guess was 95s, sort of close.

What day/time were you playing this weekend? I went on Friday and Sunday nights so I might've been there the same time as you were. What table were you on?

ScottyZ · Jul 28,2004, 09:16 PM

Nope, it wasn't an Asian lady. I was playing during the day on Friday, from around 3pm until 7pm, at table 9 (I think... the one closest to the poker room "reception desk").

ScottyZ

Jay · Jul 29,2004, 12:11 AM

Yeah, the one closest to the podium. I was at the podium around 9:00pm, way afte you left.

ReefAquarium · Jun 04,2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Here's a hand from the weekend that I've been thinking about quite a bit. My initial reaction was that I might have been able to extract more value, but now I'm not sure I could have won any more money here.

Both opponents that went to the end of the hand are fairly aggressive O-fish, who rarely bluff; but, being O-fish, are often sort of bluffing by betting very weak hands or draws.

I get a free play with A5o in the BB. The SB has folded, and there are 4 or 5 players in.

Pot is 4.5 to 5.5 sb

Quote:

Flop A94 rainbow. I check, UTG bets, 2nd UTG calls,

Pot is 8 sb

A big light in my head goes off. "WEAK PLAYER or FANCY PLAY"

This is a raise or fold situation for UTG+1 Calling is a clear error whatever he has unless he's making a move.

Quote:

the rest fold to me. Against typical, solid, or unknown players I have an easy fold here. However, I have seen the UTG open with the flop betting with an enormous range of hands, anything from middle pair/undercard kicker to a straight draw to a pocket underpair. The 2nd UTG had been somewhat aggressive (but still an O-Fish), so her calling suggests she does not have an Ace. I call with my cheese, thinking there's a reasonable chance that it is good. These players will not be pushed out with a flop check-raise. It's 5-10.

Turn is my happy card, a 5 completing the rainbow. I check again, going for the check-raise here. I am quite sure the UTG will bet again, since I haven't seen him voluntarily slow down his betting when he faces no aggression. To my surprise, delight, and sparking the tiniest hint of fear, 2nd UTG raises. This indicates that she has either been slowplaying a monster (not too likely), or the 5 has helped her (a little more likely).

Pot is 7 BB and it's 2 BB to you...

You don't bet your vulnerable 2 pair here because

??

Your read on UTG+1 is a weak player... I'd say he's a weak player playing poorly not a good player making a move here.

Re-raise. Protect your vulnerable hand.

If he shows you pocket 4's or A9o then good for him.

3 betting forces UTG to call 2 bb into a 10 BB pot rather than 1 bet into an 8 BB pot.

Not raising here is a clear error.
Protect your vulnerable hand.

Only a 2 or a 3 doesn't threaten to counterfit your 5.

That's 8 safe cards!!!

They may not fold in 5/10 for a check raise for a small bet.
But a check raise for 2 big bets.....

Quote:

I decide to simply call. UTG calls.

River is a Q. I check and call, UTG calls.

I think the way I played the turn and river was *far* more passive than I usually would, but I feel it may have been right to do so in order to keep the UTG on the hook for another 2 big bets. Any thoughts?

Some specific questions:

1. What does the 2nd UTG have?

Answer in Rot-13: Gur unaq fur npghnyyl unq jnf sbhe svir fhvgrq.

2. Would you have made it 3 bets on the turn?

3. Would you have check-raised the river? Or bet out instead of checking?

ScottyZ

You don't want overcalls.

I think you don't want to give UTG 8 to 1 and then 11 to 1 odds for his overcalls.

Checkraise on the turn to protect the 8 Big blind pot.

Checkraising the river is not as good since if he was drawing he can bet if he make it and fold if he whiffed although it's a fairly dry board.

ReefAquarium · Jun 04,2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by all_aces

Hey Scotty,

I like the way you played the turn. That's enough action for your 2 pair. As for the river, I probably would have bet out. I like to bet out on the river with hands that are probably good. It beats check-raising, because--to an extent--you can limit the action. IMHO it also beats check-calling, because you don't want it to be checked around. There are two reasons why it would get checked around: first of all, maybe 2nd UTG was on a complete steal. Although, a turn bluff-raise seems very unlikely given your description of that player. Second, maybe 2nd UTG has an OK hand, but didn't expect 2 callers on the turn after his/her raise, and wants to slow down (stop) now. Especially after you called 2 cold.

Here's an example of betting out on the river from a 30/60 hand last night:

I have AK in MP and raise, only LP calls.
Flop: AK8. Bet, call.
Turn: 3. Bet, raise, call.
River: 9. Bet, raise, call.

LP had pocket eights. So, it didn't work that time. But, I'm glad I didn't check-raise the river, and I think my hand got exactly the amount of action it wanted, if that makes any sense. 2 pair is good, but not great.

So, my answers to your questions:

1: 2nd UTG has 45, probably s00ted. I forget where to go for Rot-13, so an English translation would be appreciated.

2: I would have played the turn exactly as you did.

3: As mentioned, I would have bet out on the river.

Regards,
all_aces

I don't understand your thinking here.
I respect your postings but I don't understand what you're trying to do.

I don't play above 5/10 so bear in mind that I don't know the 30/60 game.

Why not 3 bet the turn if you intend to bet on the river. It costs the same and charges him if he's drawing something like QJs, AQs, AJs, A8s, A3s.

BBC Z · Jun 04,2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Pot is 7 BB and it's 2 BB to you...

You don't bet your vulnerable 2 pair here because??

Vulnerable to what exactly? OP is sitting on top two pair. If UTG+1 has a better ace, he's drawin to 5ish outs. Other than that, villians are drawing to 2-4 outs for various straight draws. If scotty raises the turn, he risks losing UTG and getting 3towned by UTG+1's monster. Or raising and losing UTG with UTG+1 calling him down. UTG is pretty much free-chips into the pot, you don't want (or need to) knock him out.

Did you misread the hand?

ReefAquarium · Jun 04,2007, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC Z

Vulnerable to what exactly? OP is sitting on top two pair. If UTG+1 has a better ace, he's drawin to 5ish outs. Other than that, villians are drawing to 2-4 outs for various straight draws. If scotty raises the turn, he risks losing UTG and getting 3towned by UTG+1's monster. Or raising and losing UTG with UTG+1 calling him down. UTG is pretty much free-chips into the pot, you don't want (or need to) knock him out.

Did you misread the hand?

Here is my understanding of the hand on the turn.

Board is A94(5)
Hero has A5o

OP is not sitting on top 2 pair. He has 1st and 3rd.

I could see him going for an overcall if he had very good control over the opponents and he had something like AK top 2. But a vulnerable 1st and 3rd two pair I play fast.

Hero will be happy if a 2, 3 or a 5 comes on the river. Everything else threatens to beat his 2 pair.
Hero should protect his hand.
Hero should check raise to force the UTG to call 2 bets or fold.

Hero should not go for an overcall with a vulnerable 2 pair hand.

Play it fast. Checkraise. If UTG folds and UTG+1 4 bets you on a bluff and you fold then bully for him.

I could be wrong but that's what I see.

ScoobyD · Jun 04,2007, 06:25 PM

Nice, way to drag up an old (but good) hand.

I'm a little on the fence on this one.

Quote:

Play it fast. Checkraise. If UTG folds and UTG+1 4 bets you on a bluff and you fold then bully for him.

My initial gut instinct is to CR the turn as well (as OP's intention was). To his surprise UTG+1 raised the turn in front of him making it 2 bets cold. This could easily be a slowplayed set, a turned gutshot, possibly a worse 2 pair, or maybe a big ace.

I really can't see my self check-3betting here and folding to a cap. By this point we've bloated the pot immensily and are drawing to a probable 4 outs against some of his monsters (44, 23), as well, as an overagro player may cap with a worse 2 pair to boot (A3, 45). Against an aggressive player like this, I just can't see NOT taking aces up to a showdown with them.

Yes if we cold call, we're inviting the original bettor to call with Ax and he has a chace to draw to his 6 outs.

FWIW I prefer leading the river as well for the reasons already mentioned (calling a raise).

Basically I'd prefer going 3-4 big bets (from the turn) against two opponents probably with 6-9 outs against us total if we're ahead than managing to isolate ourselves against a possible monster and going 5 bets to SD.

If we had a stronger read that the turn raiser would habitually raise light, then I like 3 betting the turn better I think...

ReefAquarium · Jun 04,2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyD

Nice, way to drag up an old (but good) hand.

I'm a little on the fence on this one.

My initial gut instinct is to CR the turn as well (as OP's intention was). To his surprise UTG+1 raised the turn in front of him making it 2 bets cold. This could easily be a slowplayed set, a turned gutshot, possibly a worse 2 pair, or maybe a big ace.

I really can't see my self check-3betting here and folding to a cap. By this point we've bloated the pot immensily and are drawing to a probable 4 outs against some of his monsters (44, 23), as well, as an overagro player may cap with a worse 2 pair to boot (A3, 45). Against an aggressive player like this, I just can't see NOT taking aces up to a showdown with them.

Yes if we cold call, we're inviting the original bettor to call with Ax and he has a chace to draw to his 6 outs.

FWIW I prefer leading the river as well for the reasons already mentioned (calling a raise).

Basically I'd prefer going 3-4 big bets (from the turn) against two opponents probably with 6-9 outs against us total if we're ahead than managing to isolate ourselves against a possible monster and going 5 bets to SD.

If we had a stronger read that the turn raiser would habitually raise light, then I like 3 betting the turn better I think...

Good points.

I was betting the turn, planning to consider a fold to a re-raise.
But if we are going to call in any event then calling 2 cold on the turn and possibly 1 more on the river anyways is better than calling the capped turn and possible one more on the river.

The board is so dry I guess you can let UTG draw to it....