Brantford 5-10 hand: how is this river fold?

ScottyZ · Jan 25,2004, 12:23 PM

Typical Brantford 5-10. Loose-passive-chasing.

I raise 2nd UTG with AQo, 3 cold callers, blinds fold.

Flop Kc Jx Tc (I have no clubs). First to act, I bet, 3 callers.

Turn Jc. I bet, only 1 caller who looks at his hole cards before calling on the turn.

River Qc. Now 4 clubs on board, board is paired. I check, opponent bets.

Huge pot. I fold.

Comments?

ScottyZ

esool · Jan 25,2004, 02:47 PM

Was it not proper pot odds to call at that point? How was this player playing previoulsy, loose or tight?
Sounds like you made the right play seeing as he probably made the flush...

ScottyZ · Jan 25,2004, 03:14 PM

I was fairly new to the table, but he was certainly a beginner (he thought about each action far longer than an experienced player would).

You make a good point about comparing the pot odds vs. probability of a bluff, and a call here certainly wouldn't have been a mistake by any means.

ScottyZ

esool · Jan 25,2004, 04:40 PM

I probably would not have been considering the pot odds at the time either. I am trying to pick up on things like this though. It is always easier after the fact to think things through. :?

vinsanity · Jan 25,2004, 07:38 PM

I'm really curious about the games in Brantford. I've been playing on Party since september, been winning consistently at 2-4/3-6. Could I beat the 5-10/10-20 games in Brantford? how does Brantford compare with Party? And how does anywhere else (Sarnia, Port Perry, Rama) compare to Party.

I've only played in friendly home games live so I'm a little leary about the game being too fast for me or giving away tells. I tend to curse and yell when I play online, lol.

ScottyZ · Jan 26,2004, 12:40 AM

If you have been consistently winning at Party 2-4 and 3-6, you would probably be able to do well at most of the Ontario 5-10 games, likely using a similar playing style.

Despite what people tell me, I still think the Brantford 10-20 is a *very* different game than the 5-10. Don't jump into the 10-20 with the strategy you use at 5-10.

Of course, the people recommending the 10-20 to me know that the game is different, but they try to give me the impression that it's just as easy to beat as the 5-10, and I don't agree with that.

ScottyZ

ScottyZ · Jan 26,2004, 08:50 AM

Another reason this hand stuck in my mind is it was the first low-limit hand I've had to think about significantly for quite a while. It was funny because later on we were talking about how you generally play 5-10 "like a robot", and I would agree with that to some extent. When I think back on my mistakes in a particular 5-10 session, they are invariably mistakes that can be described as me trying to be too fancy.

Maybe that's one reason I've enjoyed playing a lot of $5 NLHE sit-n-go's lately-- there are generally more deep thinking situations in (low-limit) tournaments than (low-limit) ring games.

I wonder if that last bit is still true if you remove the "low-limit" part.

ScottyZ

JonB · Jan 28,2004, 04:19 AM

Port Perry from my times being there is probably the toughest game around. It's so far out of the way and it's not attracting anyone but probably the some of the best players in that area. I would rather go to Brantford, Rama or Turning Stone.

Turning Stone I have found the easiest. In this area of the world that is. They have 27 tables too!. A lot of american kids play there after watching the WPT or WSOP on TV. For example I'm playing in a 15\30 game look across the room to 1-3 hold'em game and see a guy wearing sunglasses and a backwards upside down visor on, AKA that Boyd guy flinging Chips around like some monkey trapped in a zoo. There are a few pros out there but they are playing the 5\10 NL game (minimum buy in is $300) and if it goes on long enough it usually gets bumped to 10\15 blinds. So I feel pretty safe in the 10\20-20\40 games when that game is running. On top of that you get some rich kids that think they can win and lose a bundle at the stakes I just mentioned.

Rama once again attracts tourists with their shows and what not. I used to go on Sunday afternoons but the bus ride just got to me. I used to play in the 10\20 game there and they offer a 4\8 ($5 rake though!!!) too. I hear tuesday nights they get 50\100 game going and eventually turns in to 100\200. This was about a year ago though. Things may have changed.

Brantford, well never been there. But I suppose it's better in the sense that it's in a more populated and accessible area unlike Port Perry.

vinsanity · Jan 28,2004, 05:51 AM

Where's turning stone?

ScottyZ · Jan 28,2004, 06:04 AM

New York State. Maybe 4 or 5 hours from London.

ScottyZ

JonB · Jan 28,2004, 07:56 AM

It's just outside of Utica in Verona. They have a big Hotel there too if your looking to go play on the weekend or something and it's a long drive. They are offering WSOP and WPT satellites too.

Gonzo · Mar 09,2004, 04:10 PM

I've played Rama 2-5 and Port perry 5-10 & 10-20.

I'll never play anything less than 5-10 again. The calling is unreal! I figure if the raises are capped at $8 the first two rounds and $20 the next two rounds, the most you can ever lose in one hand is $56. Now that may be significant to us here but for business men who want to "gamble" and not necessarily play cards this amount is nothing. I had a huge hand and starting betting crazily... thinking rif raff would fold at the rasies and reraises. Come to find out (showdown) dude was holding a small pair had made his set on the river. Now thats all well and good, but I was holding big slick off suit had flopped top two (A and K). With the betting so severe, and overcards on the flop, would anyone have stuck around without at least an ace?

Now that I am done venting I'll make my point. These minimal tables are very cheap if you are a card chaser. Especially compared to the $200 you have to pay to stay in a hand at a 10-20 table. I find the higher limits present a more readable table. If someone is bluffing it costs them, not like the $2 it costs to bluff at the 2-5!

just my humble opinion.

ScottyZ · Mar 09,2004, 04:36 PM

Yeah, you definitely have to play a very different style at 5-10 or lower. Plus the rake is murder at these levels (especially in Ontario).

And of course, you have to be psychologically prepared for these sorts of beats. The way I think of it is that it's exactly this sort of chasing that *makes* me money in the long run at low limit. It's difficult to look past the isolated bad beat hand to the large picture, but that's what I try to do (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) to try to achieve my "Zen of Low Limit Poker." 8)

If you're more comfortable (and successful) playing at higher levels then that's probably exactly what you should do. Not only is the rake/house drop more in your favour when you play higher limits, but sticking with the game you play best has to be a good thing.

ScottyZ

Gamblor · May 14,2004, 10:10 AM

Try to make him fold a bad club with a river bet.

Now, what happens when you get raised?

If he's an aggressive player, he might try to push you off a broadway. If he's weak-tight or even fairly passive, fold to the raise.

How did he look when he bet the river? Did he fling in his chips, or did he place them softly and quietly? Did he take your river check as weakness? Would he bet an A here? Or would he only bet the nuts on the end?

Don't let up on the end just cause the board looks scary.

Gamblor · May 14,2004, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

I've played Rama 2-5 and Port perry 5-10 & 10-20.

I'll never play anything less than 5-10 again. The calling is unreal! I figure if the raises are capped at $8 the first two rounds and $20 the next two rounds, the most you can ever lose in one hand is $56. Now that may be significant to us here but for business men who want to "gamble" and not necessarily play cards this amount is nothing. I had a huge hand and starting betting crazily... thinking rif raff would fold at the rasies and reraises. Come to find out (showdown) dude was holding a small pair had made his set on the river. Now thats all well and good, but I was holding big slick off suit had flopped top two (A and K). With the betting so severe, and overcards on the flop, would anyone have stuck around without at least an ace?

Now that I am done venting I'll make my point. These minimal tables are very cheap if you are a card chaser. Especially compared to the $200 you have to pay to stay in a hand at a 10-20 table. I find the higher limits present a more readable table. If someone is bluffing it costs them, not like the $2 it costs to bluff at the 2-5!

just my humble opinion.

If you can't beat bad players, how can you beat good players?