" Can I see that hand.."

mac · Feb 16,2005, 06:11 PM

NO YOU CAN'T.

What a ridiculous rule that was implemented to protect players from collusion ( good), but that is exploited and manipulated by the many (not good).

I am sure you are a decent enough player to narrow down the hands to which I could be calling/raising with, figure it out on your own. You don't ask to see when you are online, don't do it at the casino.
It slows down the game and alot of people take offence to it ( me included).
If you believe I am colluding with someone ( why the rule was implemented) , by all means do so, call the super over and lets get it solved, but if it is just to see how I play after I have laid my hand down to your winner, you are making an enemy.

Let a man lose with some dignity.

all_aces · Feb 16,2005, 06:53 PM

I have to say, I agree with you. One time in Regina, after a sizeable in-the-money tournament finish, me and my g/f were having fun in the 15/30 game. Well, I was having fun because I was hammered (fully in celebration mode, just tossing a few chips around) and she was having fun watching me have fun.

It was clear to everyone at the table that I was a bit intoxicated, and just looking for a good time. I was playing a little looser than usual... Anyways, I got involved with A9 somehow and ended up holding the best hand--top pair, top kicker all the way to the river, whereupon somebody made a straight or something. I just called the out-of-the-blue river bet, and mucked my cards. I think I'd been betting or raising every street before that. A guy at the other end of the table asked the dealer if he could see my cards, and I was more or less shocked. I believe I said something like 'is that good enough for you? Top pair top kicker?'. Then I picked up my chips and left, telling the guy that he just managed to get rid of the easiest money at the table.

Did I over-react? Probably. But from that experience I can see how someone would take offense to it, and unless I'm in a VERY serious game, or I have a VERY strong reason to suspect I'm being cheated, I never ask to see someone's cards after they muck them. I can think of lots of good reasons why people would want to ask, but like mac, it just isn't for me.

Tredeb · Feb 17,2005, 08:27 AM

Quote:

What a ridiculous rule that was implemented to protect players from collusion

Maybe I am missing the point, perhaps someone could clarify it for me.

How does looking at the losing hand help you determine if there is collusion?

Quote:

A guy at the other end of the table asked the dealer if he could see my cards,

You won, get over it. I agree, in the case above, the only purpose it serves is seeing what you were playing.

Would the guy have been mad if you had top pair and were chasing a straight or flush or second pair How about small PP chasing a set? As you stated, you were there for fun and he should have recognized you as a money pit and kept his mouth shut.

cheers

mac · Feb 17,2005, 09:25 AM

How does looking at the losing hand help you determine if there is collusion?

2 players( or more) can/do trap a third player ( or more) by wrapping and capping some or all streets when the 2 players are colluding and signalling off their hands. When someone asks to see a losing/called hand it can be surmised based on their hole cards if indeed they did have a hand that coincided with the board, or if they had no business being in the hand and raising with their garbage does give credibility to the unsuspecting, that there is indeed something wrong going on at this table. Thus the collusion.

Tredeb · Feb 17,2005, 10:14 PM

I figured it had to be more than heads up.

Thanks for the clarification

Pigga · Feb 17,2005, 11:03 PM

I dont do this often, but in this post i made , i did it once that day

Profitable 2-4 session at River Rock

where there was maniacs 3-betting and capping with any 2 sooted cards or any 1, yes 1 , face card and any other random card

i called one of the guys down with a pair of 5's once and before he had mucked, i asked to see his hand before it hit the muck and the dealer turned over his 94h for 9 high. that was the only time i did it, its just that for the first bit him, and the person beside him were constantly 3-betting and capping it preflop/flop/turn etc and it would end up HU a lot of the time......so i wanted to see exactly what they were raisign with in case of collusion.....now the thing is, i doubt they were colluding....because if they were, you'd think they'd stop doing this after basically being exposed......turns out they were just really really horrible players, so i would trap them/let them do all the raising for me....but once i figured out how 'random' their raises were, i took advantage of them and they were my atms, thats why i ended up like +$400 in 4-5 hrs at that table from 2-4...

Its not something i ask commonly, just when theres some odd actions every hand over and over again.... my suspicions were fulfilled after seeing that 94h that they werent smart enough to collude....

Hope this helps a bit

Pigga

CanKid · Feb 23,2005, 09:34 AM

Seats 4 5 6 7 depending on the dealer's end of hand arm positions are best for hyper mucking at the end of a hand.

If I get somebody really trying to tilt me with that crap, I call the floor over everytime to ask him if he sees any suspected collusion. Of course he won't, but he'll eventually get pissed when I call him over every hand I play to showdown.

Iron · Feb 23,2005, 09:50 AM

The question I have about this is where does this type of request became an abuse of the rule. I've actually been at a table at Rama where a rock who folded most of the time preflop made a point of asking to see every single show down hand the whole session (I moved tables, but I was stuck there for an hour or so waiting). Is there not a point where the floor can say that a person has lost their privilege to keep seeing the hands by abusing the rule? I guess not... sheesh.

Yorkpoker · Feb 28,2005, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron

The question I have about this is where does this type of request became an abuse of the rule. I've actually been at a table at Rama where a rock who folded most of the time preflop made a point of asking to see every single show down hand the whole session (I moved tables, but I was stuck there for an hour or so waiting). Is there not a point where the floor can say that a person has lost their privilege to keep seeing the hands by abusing the rule? I guess not... sheesh.

I use this rule on occasion, especially when I am the new guy at a table. I like to see what people like to play with. For me, it's more about learning their pre-flop strategy than what they made at the end of the hand. If somone raises pre-flop and then calls the hand to the end and loses, I like to know what they consider raise-worth cards. It has nothing to do with respect or ettiquete, or gettin gunder someone's skin (which I use this for too sometimes) but more to save myself a few bucks and learn people's patterns.

That being said, I also like to make sure anyone on tilt who loses a hand is made to expose their hand and keep the tilt machine running a little longer.

harthgosh · Feb 28,2005, 02:45 PM

just muck it. once its in the muck it cant be opened. if the dealer tries to pull it out of the muck tell him to stop or yell pit. they usually give up and side with you there. if some old POS asks to see my cards cuz i cap it preflop and call all the way and muck when i dont win, i usually tell him he is stupid and i tell him that i will begin to ask see his hand every time and harrass him every time he breaks a rule (eg money over the line, swearing, etc etc). if they really piss me off like asking to see my losers twice in one session i will usually start trying to muck there hands preflop with my own when i fold by winging my cards at him.
i always just throw it deep into the muck.

sweetjimmi · Feb 28,2005, 02:57 PM

Quote:

I use this rule on occasion, especially when I am the new guy at a table. I like to see what people like to play with. For me, it's more about learning their pre-flop strategy than what they made at the end of the hand. If somone raises pre-flop and then calls the hand to the end and loses, I like to know what they consider raise-worth cards. It has nothing to do with respect or ettiquete, or gettin gunder someone's skin (which I use this for too sometimes) but more to save myself a few bucks and learn people's patterns.

This is angle shooting!!!! Play fair and don't be an ass!!! You may piss a guy off like Harthgosh and then what will you do?

Yorkpoker · Feb 28,2005, 05:45 PM

Apparently I will duck when he folds

I sense some serious aggressiveness from Harthgosh there. If it's a rule, then anyone can use it and not be called a POS. It's interesting that harthgosh would respond to a legal, albeit annoying, request with some serious misbehaviour on the table. Trying to much another's cards is a far worse offense than asking to see a dead hand, IMO. Any called hand can be seen by the table. Period.

The rule is, actually, that the hand MUST be mucked for the dealer to open it. I speak of poker in Ontario only though. Normally once a player folds, the dealer sweeps all cards into the muck before awarding the pot. If another player at the table (who doesn't have to be one of the callers, BTW) asks to see the cards, the dealer is to touch the hand to the muck first and then open them. This protects the 'winner' in case the player who folds misreads his/her hand. A winning hand that has not been mucked may be awarded the pot. Usually a dealer or supervisor would properly award the pot, but mucking the hand first removes all doubt.

harthgosh · Feb 28,2005, 05:56 PM

first off by asking to see someones hands u TIGHTEN up the table. If u ask to see a suckers hand all the time then u r an idiot and shouldnt be playin poker because this player will tighten up.

If someone who i respect asks and i think its fair i show right away. What i get hostile about is when dumb old rocks ask to see my hand after i lose. I generally dont pay people off on the river for a small pot, so it is lame to have someone not in the hand on the river asking to see it, it means he cant figure it out. If he does it to me again it doesnt effect my poker, and i will try to muck his hands. Its his problem if he doesnt protect his cards... im just exploiting another dumb rule at the table back at him.

Yorkpoker · Feb 28,2005, 06:01 PM

Fair enough. Your first response just seemed harsh without context.

When I have done that, I don't use it on EVERY hand that gets mucked, but if an interesting or action packed hand occurs I like to know as much as I can about it.

And I disagree with your calling intent to muck another's hand another dumb rule. It's malicious and while I agree that old rocks being sticklers for the rules can be irritating - I still think it's in bad taste to overreact and play dirty.

harthgosh · Feb 28,2005, 06:18 PM

i agree mucking others hands is malicious. what can i say its poker war for me.

I think u misunderstood. In card rooms I am familiar with, it is perfectly ok to throw your cards on someones unprotected hand. there is no rule that says u cant do it if u make it look like an accident. and their hand is dead.... true, the trip to the parking lot may be hazardous to my health... lol

the rule that im manipulating back is the not protectong their cards rule, which most people dont do in the first 20 seconds of any hand or are generally sloppy about doing.