" Can I see that hand.."

MickeyHoldem · Mar 02,2005, 12:25 PM

Here's an excellent article....

I want to see that hand

If you fold and someone asks to see your hand, quickly ask..."Do you suspect me of collusion?"... when they answer "No!"... because we all know they're just fishing for info, call the floor!! When the floor shows up, ask them to explain this rule to the idiot at the table... works everytime! (this assumes the floor knows the correct rule!)

sweetjimmi · Mar 02,2005, 12:45 PM

But I thought the rule wasn't for collusions only anymore

??

ScottyZ · Mar 02,2005, 01:09 PM

No casino I've ever played at has had an IWTSTH rule (that I'm aware of) which differentiated between collusion-motivated requests and other requests. Not only would this be a logistical nightmare to implement, but any floor person savvy enough to properly identify what is or isn't a collusion-motivated IWTSTH request has no need for such a rule in the first place. He/she would already have the ability to indentify likely collusion scenarios, and simply investigate such situations without need for a player to actually request to see the hands. (The player may, of course, request a "collusion investigation" from the floor.)

What people seem to be talking about here is calling proper use of the IWTSTH rule as it currently stands to be "abuse" or "unethical". This is confusing the motivation for creating the rule with the rule itself.

ScottyZ

MickeyHoldem · Mar 02,2005, 01:32 PM

What's it for then... getting free info on hands played by opponents... who said it was used for things other than collusion?

... Let me re-read this thread, maybe I missed something...

Ok... there has been discussion about more than one rule here...

This is the "Collusion Rule"

Quote:

Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

A called hand is one that has bet and been called, or has rasied and been called. There can be more than one called hand at the showdown. Example:
On the river... Player A checks.... Player B bets.... Player C calls... Player D raises... Player A , B and C call. By definition Player B and D have "called" hands and anyone at the table can ask to see either of these hands. This is the rule that was written as an attempt to curb collusion. No one has any right to see Player A's or C's hand!

Here is the other rule that causes arguments...

Quote:

If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot.

So in the above example Player D has to show first, then A, B and finally C.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Although one of the original motivations for this rule was to deter collusion, this rule also has some other good reasons for being a rule, including speeding up the game for example. (Helps to cut down on the "I don't want to show mine first" game.)

These are clearly different rules!

ScoobyD · Mar 02,2005, 01:54 PM

OK, this is a little off-topic, but another scenario (and completely different rule). 3 people to showdown, drunk maniac rivers his miracle 2-outer. One of the other players in the hand looks disgusted and shows his hand to the person sitting beside him and then mucks. Is it bad etiquette to ask the dealer to open the hand (show one, show all)? Or is it bad etiquette on the part of the person exposing his hand privately to another player? I tend to think the latter is worse...

ScottyZ · Mar 02,2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

These are clearly different rules!

I guess what I meant is that in practice, I can use the "Collusion Rule" to speed up players who do not like to follow (or who don't know) the "Showdown in the correct order" rule. That is, if player D from your example hums and haws and waits for everyone else to show, I find it nice that I can just say "Let's see player D's hand please" to keep things moving.

Quote:

On the river... Player A checks.... Player B bets.... Player C calls... Player D raises... Player A , B and C call. By definition Player B and D have "called" hands and anyone at the table can ask to see either of these hands. This is the rule that was written as an attempt to curb collusion. No one has any right to see Player A's or C's hand!

As I understand the current rule used in most casinos, any player can ask to see all of these hands.

Even if you're thinking in a collusion-deterrence way, anyone certainly should have the right to see any of these hands, including the hands of players A & C.

Say for example that players A & D are a team. Player A checks but signals player D that he has a big hand. Player D decides to raise for "team value" with nothing. At the showdown, it turns out that player B has the winning hand, and player D has complete rags. Some player who suspects collusion should have the right to see player A's hand.

The key idea here is that the team member who has the best hand (within the team) does not necessarily need to be an aggressive bettor on the final betting round.

ScottyZ

MickeyHoldem · Mar 02,2005, 02:03 PM

Quote:

OK, this is a little off-topic, but another scenario (and completely different rule). 3 people to showdown, drunk maniac rivers his miracle 2-outer. One of the other players in the hand looks disgusted and shows his hand to the person sitting beside him and then mucks. Is it bad etiquette to ask the dealer to open the hand (show one, show all)? Or is it bad etiquette on the part of the person exposing his hand privately to another player? I tend to think the latter is worse...

Definately worse etiquette for the player showing his hand... although when you ask to see it, some may consider you of bad etiquette. I would hope that you could figure it out with out asking!!!

ScoobyD · Mar 02,2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

I would hope that you could figure it out with out asking!!!

Ya, generally I feel their pain, and won't explicitly ask (usually if the dealer is paying attention they'll flag them anyways).

MickeyHoldem · Mar 02,2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

On the river... Player A checks.... Player B bets.... Player C calls... Player D raises... Player A , B and C call. By definition Player B and D have "called" hands and anyone at the table can ask to see either of these hands. This is the rule that was written as an attempt to curb collusion. No one has any right to see Player A's or C's hand!

As I understand the current rule used in most casinos, any player can ask to see all of these hands.

You can ask, but if I'm A or C, there's gonna be an argument. At Akwasasne, this came up recently and player C (for colorful) flipped out (and I've seen some doosey flip outs) after the dealer turned his mucked cards over! The floor was called and a lively discussion insued... it was settled that only "called" hands needed to be shown.

Speaking of flip outs (and I was)... I was witness to a beauty a few months ago... during a tourney... one player, let's call him Heated... gets warned for folding face up after the flop or turn, when there are still players left in the hand (a correct warning, I think we would agree)... this had happened about 3 times before the warning. So Heated settles down, and starts behaving himself. Then it happens... Heated makes a fold from seat 8, tossing his cards gently to the center of the table... very innocently, like we all have.... and one of the cards hits the edge of a large stack that had been bet from seat 6, and flips over... The floor sees the open card.... walks over and takes about T5000 out of Heated's stack... probably about 1/8 of his stack... Well the SH*^ hits the fan... Heated flips... a chair goes flying.... about 6 security guys materialize out of no where... screaming and yelling... no ones even asked the dealer yet what happened!!! The tourney gets held up for about 15 mins... Heated is screaming his case to the casino manager, who is here now... calling the poker floor a whole lot of nasty things... They finally all dissappear to go and watch the tape...
So the whole tables sitting there... waiting... looking at the dealer... and the dealer finally spurts out "Nobody asked me!!"
Heated finally comes back... sits down with all his chips and we continue... Heated looks at the dealer... "Nobody asked me!", says the dealer... Heated looks at the guy next to him... "Nobody asked me!"... "Nobody asked me!"... "Nobody asked me!"... It's a chorus, all the way around the table, until we're all laughing so hard we can hardly play!!
New dealer (joker) sits down... looks at Heated and says "Well, I guess this is the action table!"... no less than 5 people in unison say "Nobody asked you!!"... I nearly pissed my pants right there!!!

ScottyZ · Mar 02,2005, 03:00 PM

Great story, and just to clarify, I think you meant that it was Heated yelling at the floor, and not the casino manager, right? At first I was like, "Why the heck is the casino manager on tilt?" Duh.

Quote:

Heated is screaming his case to the casino manager, who is here now... calling the poker floor a whole lot of nasty things...

Seems like that's an unusual way to enforce the collusion rule, but I suppose the exact rules are always up to the individual casino.

I never thought the expression "called hand" was meant to be taken that literally. I guess I've normally thought that "called hand" was a short way of saying "hand which is live at the showdown".

ScottyZ

Yorkpoker · Mar 03,2005, 02:17 PM

Are we all on the same page with this? My understanding (perhaps limited) is that if there are 2 or more hands live at showdown, any player dealt into the hand can ask to see any of the hands, even ones that have been folded into the muck once they have been deemed losers. That's the 'rule' here (in ONT) as I know it.

The motivation of the rule, how it is used, or abused, and people's reactions to it are all predicated on us speaking in the same terms.

It may or may not have been designed to avoid collusion in the first place, but as most rules do, it has just sort of become a legacy rule. There are rules that made sense at one point but may not apply now, but we still keep them in place.

I have used the rule from time to time to gather information on a player who makes a weird or inexplicable move. Or if I am new and want to find out info on a player. I also tend to only use the rule when I am the winner of the hand in question and I want to see what hand called me. Some of you find this to be angle-shooting (first time I had heard the phrase) or cheap and tactless. I don't. It certainly isn't cheating and I am careful to mind my manners in the meantime.

I can't understand the action taken by the floorman in taking the poor guy's chips in the story below, as that is never the solution, except if a player 'called' and refused to pay into the pot. That's the only time a casino staff oenalizes a player by taking chips (and putting them in play).

It was a good story regardless. I just wanted to clarify that we're talking about live hands at the showdown only. If collusion is taking place but one party folds before the final bet is called, their hand is legitamately dead and cannot be seen.

Soup66 · Mar 03,2005, 03:19 PM

How someone play's their hands should be their own business. I don't want my cards flipped soley so someone can gain more information about my play, pay attention to my hands you do get to see.

UglyJimStudly · Mar 03,2005, 07:35 PM

I've never asked to see anyone's hand (though I have called people to the river with the intent of making them show their hand, but that of course is a different matter). I don't care if anyone asks to see my hand. If somebody needs to ask, it's about 99% likely that they're not good enough at poker to make use of whatever information they think they're getting. I don't really understand why people get their knickers in a twist over the issue.

So far as the rule's alleged purpose, I don't really buy it. I can't think of any halfway competent collusion scheme that would involve a cheater calling the final bet with junk.

harthgosh · Mar 04,2005, 02:43 AM

well stated ugly