Limit Hold'em Question about the SB

BigChrisEl · Jul 04,2006, 11:07 AM

When playing a limit game and there are several limpers pre-flop (3-4 or more) and you are on the SB, do you limp no matter what the cards or do you have to have some kind of hand? And if you need a hand what kind of minimum hand would you be looking for?

AcidJoe · Jul 04,2006, 12:20 PM

Depends on the make up of the table. If the table is very loose passive I'm involved in almost every hand regardless of cards. If there is one or more constant raiser then I tighten up large. So if I get the loose passive I'm calling in the small blind. I'm calling on the button and the cut off with almost everything. If you constantly get 6 or more people seeing the flop I know 2 of them will call me to the river even if I have the nuts. I remember the look I got calling on the button with 9 2 off when everyone else limped in and hit the 9 9 9 flop. I ended up capping both the turn and the river with 3 callers and both looked at me when I flipped the cards over, there was one fold for 10 at the table and they looked at me like I was crazy. Note: this generally only happens at 2 5, I"ve not seen that many loose passives at a 5 10 or more game.

ScoobyD · Jul 04,2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

If the table is very loose passive I'm involved in almost every hand regardless of cards.

That being said, while many more hands become playable due to implied odds with multiple bad limpers, 92o is NEVER going to be profitable for one bet from the CO or button in a structured limit game. You are going to be throwing your hand away >95% of the time post flop. Similarly that trash isn't worth a half bet in the SB. Only in a 2/3 SB structure game would it be worth completing with just about any 2 (assuming you play exceptionally better than your opponents post-flop).

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I remember the look I got calling on the button with 9 2 off when everyone else limped in and hit the 9 9 9 flop. I ended up capping both the turn and the river with 3 callers and both looked at me when I flipped the cards over, there was one fold for 10 at the table and they looked at me like I was crazy. Note: this generally only happens at 2 5, I"ve not seen that many loose passives at a 5 10 or more game.

Classic example of remembering the dream monster flops you've gotten with a "lucky hand". Unfortunately these occurances happen far too infrequently to make up for the multitude of small/large losses that happen in between.

BlondeFish · Jul 04,2006, 06:13 PM

What about in a no limit game with antes?Â* Won't the small blind have the pot odds to limp in with just about any two cards (as long as the BB is not a constant raiser)?Â* For example, in an 8-player table with 200/400 + 50 ante, if a third player limps in, the small blind would have pot odds of 12.5% (200 / 1600) to also limp in.Â* Even if the SB has the worst two cards 2-3o against A-K and other overcards, his odds of winning would be more than his pot odds, so it seems to be a +EV play.Â* In addition, the implied odds will be much better in no limit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyD

That being said, while many more hands become playable due to implied odds with multiple bad limpers, 92o is NEVER going to be profitable for one bet from the CO or button in a structured limit game.Â* You are going to be throwing your hand away >95% of the time post flop.Â* Similarly that trash isn't worth a half bet in the SB.Â* Only in a 2/3 SB structure game would it be worth completing with just about any 2 (assuming you play exceptionally better than your opponents post-flop).

pkrfce9 · Jul 04,2006, 06:26 PM

Sure the antes help but it is really the implied odds that matter with NL. As long as the stacks are really deep, you could call pretty much with any 2. Note, if you are a short stack in a tourney, it would not make sense to complete the SB with lots of limpers since odds are very slim you will hit the flop hard enough to make it worth your while.

moose · Jul 04,2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlondeFish

What about in a no limit game with antes?Â* Won't the small blind have the pot odds to limp in with just about any two cards (as long as the BB is not a constant raiser)?Â* For example, in an 8-player table with 200/400 + 50 ante, if a third player limps in, the small blind would have pot odds of 12.5% (200 / 1600) to also limp in.Â* Even if the SB has the worst two cards 2-3o against A-K and other overcards, his odds of winning would be more than his pot odds, so it seems to be a +EV play.Â* In addition, the implied odds will be much better in no limit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyD

That being said, while many more hands become playable due to implied odds with multiple bad limpers, 92o is NEVER going to be profitable for one bet from the CO or button in a structured limit game.Â* You are going to be throwing your hand away >95% of the time post flop.Â* Similarly that trash isn't worth a half bet in the SB.Â* Only in a 2/3 SB structure game would it be worth completing with just about any 2 (assuming you play exceptionally better than your opponents post-flop).

I would have to disagree with that statement. In theory 23 is not a 12.5% underdog to AK but in limit if you hit bottom pr, AK can continue to bet and you can call down to the river and it is not going to cost you much. However in nl if you hit bottom pr AK is going to bet you out of the pot well before the river. Are you really willing to consider bottom pr as sufficient justification to call off your entire stack?

AcidJoe · Jul 04,2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyD

Classic example of remembering the dream monster flops you've gotten with a "lucky hand".Â* Unfortunately these occurances happen far too infrequently to make up for the multitude of small/large losses that happen in between.Â*

It was true it was a dream flop and will not happen often, and I do throw away my hand a lot post flop.Â* However in a 11 handed 2/5 game which Rama puts on I play a lot of hands from late position rarely throwing away anything.Â*

It's true your cards are just over 5% to win the hand and it comes down to being able to fold it assuming other random hands.Â* But against the standard 2/5 player i'll take that.Â*

ScoobyD · Jul 04,2006, 10:57 PM

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But against the standard 2/5 player i'll take that.

I still don't think many offsuit hands are going to do well in that spot in a super loose game. In a typical $2-5 Brantford game with 5 limpers in ahead of you and loose blinds, I'm far more apt to limp a hand like 64s than K7o. Offsuit hands like 92o that have no high card strength, no connectedness, no suitedness, just aren't going to do much for you even against the worst post-flop players in the world since they so rarely connect (and because you're up aganst 6 of them).

BigChrisEl · Jul 05,2006, 09:20 AM

The real pain is when you fold you 8-2 off and the flop brings two 2's, then the turn brings an 8, but that is the point of the post, with 4-5 limpers should you be completing as the SB with garbage of 7-2 or 8-3.

pkrfce9 · Jul 05,2006, 09:32 AM

and the answer was........................no?

AcidJoe · Jul 05,2006, 09:36 AM

I guess what you got here is a difference of opinion with people. Â*

My answer is yes, I do almost all the time. Â* I know I'm a large dog in the 2/5 games and I throw away well over 90% of them after the flop. Â*I personally think the risk reward ratio works. Â*In a larger game I generally don't. Â*

Scoob says no, doesn't do it and doesn't think you should. Â*I guess it comes down to your tolerence for risk and your ability to throw away your hand after the flop. Â*Obviously even if you hit somewhat you could be dead. Â*A flop of K J 9 with 2 suits makes your 9 2 off l looking real bad. Â*Even a flop of 6 7 9 rainbow with your 9 isn't good. Â*You need to hit the 9 9 k rainbow flop and get the dude with the k-2 suited raising at you. Â*Few and far between but I think it's worth it. Â*If you can't throw your cards away after the flop because you have middle pair no kicker or worse then throw them away before the flop. Â*

Meistro · Jul 05,2006, 09:53 AM

I think many players play far too loose in the SB, although in a 2/3 structure with alot of limpers I am completing a ton of hands (I still think hands like Q2o should be mucked).

Tommy Angelo said it best. For me to play, I need good cards, or good position.

Spicol · Jul 05,2006, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChrisEl

The real pain is when you fold you 8-2 off and the flop brings two 2's, then the turn brings an 8, but that is the point of the post, with 4-5 limpers should you be completing as the SB with garbage of 7-2 or 8-3.

Is the BB a frequent raiser? If so, I'm folding all of my garbage. If not, I'll generally call any suited garbage or unsuited connectors and gappers if both cards are higher than 8. Against several limpers, small pairs will rarely stand up so I need the possibility of a premium hand.

The only time I'm playing 72o, 82o or 83o is if I'm checking in the BB.

Joe, against as few as 3 or 4 limpers and the BB, you're getting 8 to 1 or 10 to 1 on your money. If you're throwing away 95% of your hands post-flop, I don't see how this pays off over time. The sort of flop you need to see to make a hand wouldn't be terribly attractive to other players, so your implied odds in most of these situations are rather low, I'd think.

ScoobyD · Jul 05,2006, 10:54 AM

Hey Joe, I respect your opinion, but quite frankly disagree with it.

I think in giant multiway super loose games ANY unsuited hand can be trouble (KJ, JT, QT). I think they tend to feed the flush draws in those games which are getting great odds to draw (and raise for value) with their hands.

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If not, I'll generally call any suited garbage or unsuited connectors and gappers if both cards are higher than 8.

This is pretty close to my SB range in a game like this. I'm probably only playing down to T9o (98o and 87o seem fairly borderline, my opponents would have to be exceptionally bad post-flop to play these).

Quote:

The sort of flop you need to see to make a hand wouldn't be terribly attractive to other players, so your implied odds in most of these situations are rather low, I'd think.

I agree here, since most flops that hit you hard enough also don't give anyone else a reasonable hand. The exception is the idiot that flops a pair and calls down, but he won't play back at you unless he has a good kicker, is a LAG, or has you beat. I think the problem with hands like 92o is that with 6-7 limpers, there is a fairly reasonable chance that the field has both of your outs dominated. Even when you get that K99 flop, there is a reasonable chance that some idiot is playing a junk hand like Q9o, or 98o and may have you outkicked (yes I know it's fairly low probability that the case trips card is out, but in a big field of limpers, I'm always wary).

AcidJoe · Jul 05,2006, 10:59 AM

At Rama it's not uncommon to have 6+ limpers. Â*For the extra buck I'm going no where. Â*With those people 2-3 will call you down sometimes even raise you when you have the nuts. Â*For me I think it's worth while. Â*For those who don't then that's fine too. Â*Last time at Rama it took 2 hours for them to open a 5 10 table and I made good money playing crap from the blinds and late as the table routinely had 8+people seeing the flop with very few preflop raises. Â*Obviously once there's a raise your goin, goin , gone. Â*I actually prefer the non premium hands because even if you get AA and raise late your not chasing anyone out, now you got to get your AA to hold up against 5 or 6 other hands, which is never pretty. Â*It's just how I prefer to play in very passive games. Â*

Thanks Scoob, I do respect your opinion too. I think this type of discussion makes this forum great as we can disagree and not be flaming each other as on some other forums. Maybe I'd get more value if I didn't play that many hands, however the extra dollar or so to call doesn't bother me much and I seem to get paid off large. I know the early Saturday morning crowd at Rama is super passive and super loose and it's nice to warm up to the better games with their money. I like playing against the guys who have played there all night and are trying to make back their money.

Like I said that's how I prefer to play in those games. And again in a 5 10 or 10 20 I wouldn't even think of it for all the reasons you mentioned.