Biggest Mistakes Players Make?

PokerVector · Aug 06,2008, 01:04 PM

Starting to become a great thread. And, yes I agree that this "Ask the Poker Pro" forum is definitely something to get excited over.

One of the biggest mistakes i see players making is during tournament games...

Player A goes all in pre-flop. Player B and Player C call. The flop doesn't hit Player B at all, yet he proceeds to bluff out Player C with a bet.

...I find people just don't understand that the correct strategy here (for Player B) is to keep Player C in play unless you make a strong hand. By bluffing out Player C, you give Player A a better shot at winning the pot and staying in the tournament. Plus, bluffing should only be used if you have a legitimate chance of winning the pot without going to a showdown; in this case Player A has already committed ALL of their chips into the pot so a showdown is inevitable. In this situation I wouldn't even bet out if I had a good draw.

I hope that makes sense to everyone... I am really bad at explanations.

adpro · Aug 06,2008, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerVector

Starting to become a great thread. And, yes I agree that this "Ask the Poker Pro" forum is definitely something to get excited over.

One of the biggest mistakes i see players making is during tournament games...

Player A goes all in pre-flop. Player B and Player C call. The flop doesn't hit Player B at all, yet he proceeds to bluff out Player C with a bet.

...I find people just don't understand that the correct strategy here (for Player B) is to keep Player C in play unless you make a strong hand. By bluffing out Player C, you give Player A a better shot at winning the pot and staying in the tournament. Plus, bluffing should only be used if you have a legitimate chance of winning the pot without going to a showdown; in this case Player A has already committed ALL of their chips into the pot so a showdown is inevitable. In this situation I wouldn't even bet out if I had a good draw.

I hope that makes sense to everyone... I am really bad at explanations.

I'm going to try to find this hand in my hand history, but I had almost the exact thing come up!!

There was a guy who bet all-in pre-flop when there were 4 of us left at a 9 man SnG tournament on stars. He was being a fool with the chat feature, so I figured a lot of people were going to call him. He didn't have all that many chips.

He seemed like a tight player, so I was putting him on a high pair. I was expecting KK, but it ended up being JJ.

The first guy folds and me, with AK I believe, and another guy with two spades both call him. The flop hits with a K. I decided to check all the way to the river with the other guy. After this I knew the guy didn't have K's, and he slow played A's twice in a similar stack situation, so I put him on QQ or JJ. I guess AA was a possibility, but I was holding one of them, so the probability of that was very small.

I was thinking, maybe that guy who called with me is on a club flush draw or a straight draw and the guy hits a jack on the turn or the river. What if the J of clubs comes up, the better had a J, and the other player hit his flush? I would lose, but the other player would be gone.

Either way, I lost to a flush (the Jc didn't hit), but it was a good move to get that guy out of the game IMO.

So yeah, I think of this all the time when people are making all-in bets. Especially when it secures a spot in the money.

The good thing is, the guy who had the flush hit the flush on the turn and didn't raise. I don't know what he was putting the other guy on, but he must have been thinking like me. I ended up third that tournmanet I believe.

So, yeah, there's an example to back your post up. Good call on that one! I see it ALL THE TIME!! It's frustrating sometimes, but I could see happening less when playing at higher stakes.

schabs · Aug 06,2008, 06:42 PM

If anyone has the chance to rail AJK hoosier on PokerStars, please do. I have a number of times and played against him, plays some real solid poker.

adpro · Aug 06,2008, 07:39 PM

I would have to say that my biggest problem, as I have noticed after I just lost a HU game and came 4th in a 9 man SnG, is my hand selection and patience.

So, yeah, I need more patience. That has to be the biggest mistake newbies make!

Also, not actually learning how to play poker properly is another one for sure.

Pantsonfire · Aug 10,2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerVector

Starting to become a great thread. And, yes I agree that this "Ask the Poker Pro" forum is definitely something to get excited over.

One of the biggest mistakes i see players making is during tournament games...

Player A goes all in pre-flop. Player B and Player C call. The flop doesn't hit Player B at all, yet he proceeds to bluff out Player C with a bet.

...I find people just don't understand that the correct strategy here (for Player B) is to keep Player C in play unless you make a strong hand. By bluffing out Player C, you give Player A a better shot at winning the pot and staying in the tournament. Plus, bluffing should only be used if you have a legitimate chance of winning the pot without going to a showdown; in this case Player A has already committed ALL of their chips into the pot so a showdown is inevitable. In this situation I wouldn't even bet out if I had a good draw.

I hope that makes sense to everyone... I am really bad at explanations.

The number one thing in scenarios like this is whether it is better for the all-in player to be eliminated or whether the chips in the pot are more important to try to win.

I would suggest that in most cases, the chips are more important to you than the player being eliminated. Proving this is more complicated than I wish to attempt in this brief post but I'm certain most experienced tournament players will agree with this.

I'll try to give one example. Say there is a dry side pot with three players one all-in for 3bbs and you and another call. It is a 10.5bb pot. If you have something like 20bbs, this pot is important to you. The flop brings you an A high flush draw. I would certainly bet at this pot in hopes of knocking out something like top pair. And fortunately, most players would figure top pair was no good here given my bet into a dry side pot. My chance to win the pot now would be greatly increased and I might even be ahead of all-in guy with my A high.

Actually, a lot of good tournament players might be better off not agreeing with my opinion and I might just stop saying stuff like this.

adpro · Aug 11,2008, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantsonfire

The number one thing in scenarios like this is whether it is better for the all-in player to be eliminated or whether the chips in the pot are more important to try to win.

I would suggest that in most cases, the chips are more important to you than the player being eliminated. Proving this is more complicated than I wish to attempt in this brief post but I'm certain most experienced tournament players will agree with this.

I'll try to give one example. Say there is a dry side pot with three players one all-in for 3bbs and you and another call. It is a 10.5bb pot. If you have something like 20bbs, this pot is important to you. The flop brings you an A high flush draw. I would certainly bet at this pot in hopes of knocking out something like top pair. And fortunately, most players would figure top pair was no good here given my bet into a dry side pot. My chance to win the pot now would be greatly increased and I might even be ahead of all-in guy with my A high.

Actually, a lot of good tournament players might be better off not agreeing with my opinion and I might just stop saying stuff like this.

I ran into a situation where I had to bet to win both of the pots. I forced the other guy out on the river, but I hit a full house on the flop, so I had to try to extract as many chips as I could.

From my point of view at the moment, there are situations where both can apply.

I was playing the other day and hit a pair on the flop. It wasn't a big pair, but another guy was all in with very few chips. There were 4 of us total, and all of us saw the flop. I was first to act with a pair of 9's or something like that. I had 9-T suited I think, small blind. So, I checked. The guy on the button decides to raise, so the other two of us fold. He was bluffing and the dude that was all in had nothing. He had a good hand with AK, but he didn't hit anything on the flop.

So, in this situation, I believe the best move is to not bluff others off of their hands in order to get the guy out.

Like I said, I can think of good examples of both. I was also playing yesterday and another guy pushed me off of my hand early when I had AQ suited. I hit nothing on the flop, but a T came up. There were 3 of us in this hand. One guy was all in - he bet a bit more than I wanted to call to be all in, but I took the chance to get him out, and I had a lot of chips - and the other guy called him with me. The flop comes out and I'm last to act. The other guy raised almost twice the pot size. I just couldn't call that, so I folded. The turn and river ended up being JK to give me the straight. He had nothing and the all-in guy ended up with a pair of Jacks.

So, yeah, I can see why checking down to the river works sometimes. So, if there is a large chance you are going to win, you should consider pushing the other guy out of the pot, to increase your chances, but if you don't have anything, don't bluff. That's how I see it now. No bluffing when other players are all-in.

EDIT:

On the other hand, if you have nothing and you sense weakness, you might want to push the other guy out of the bot incase it comes down to a 'who has the highest card' type of situation. Or, you might hit your pair on the turn or river to win. Pushing as many people out of the pot as possible will increase your odds. You could look at it that way too.

Pantsonfire · Aug 11,2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adpro

I ran into a situation where I had to bet to win both of the pots. I forced the other guy out on the river, but I hit a full house on the flop, so I had to try to extract as many chips as I could.

From my point of view at the moment, there are situations where both can apply.

I was playing the other day and hit a pair on the flop. It wasn't a big pair, but another guy was all in with very few chips. There were 4 of us total, and all of us saw the flop. I was first to act with a pair of 9's or something like that. I had 9-T suited I think, small blind. So, I checked. The guy on the button decides to raise, so the other two of us fold. He was bluffing and the dude that was all in had nothing. He had a good hand with AK, but he didn't hit anything on the flop.

So, in this situation, I believe the best move is to not bluff others off of their hands in order to get the guy out.

Like I said, I can think of good examples of both. I was also playing yesterday and another guy pushed me off of my hand early when I had AQ suited. I hit nothing on the flop, but a T came up. There were 3 of us in this hand. One guy was all in - he bet a bit more than I wanted to call to be all in, but I took the chance to get him out, and I had a lot of chips - and the other guy called him with me. The flop comes out and I'm last to act. The other guy raised almost twice the pot size. I just couldn't call that, so I folded. The turn and river ended up being JK to give me the straight. He had nothing and the all-in guy ended up with a pair of Jacks.

So, yeah, I can see why checking down to the river works sometimes. So, if there is a large chance you are going to win, you should consider pushing the other guy out of the pot, to increase your chances, but if you don't have anything, don't bluff. That's how I see it now. No bluffing when other players are all-in.

EDIT:

On the other hand, if you have nothing and you sense weakness, you might want to push the other guy out of the bot incase it comes down to a 'who has the highest card' type of situation. Or, you might hit your pair on the turn or river to win. Pushing as many people out of the pot as possible will increase your odds. You could look at it that way too.

I agree with you wholeheartedly and I am going to check it down much more often from now on.

ScoobyD · Aug 12,2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Folding obv.

Quote:

In cash games you have to fold often when you feel you could be ahead.

Wow, it's like he's psychic...

Folding when ahead in cash games is "generally" not a good plan...

herschelw · Aug 12,2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyD

Wow, it's like he's psychic...

Folding when ahead in cash games is "generally" not a good plan...

There are definitly many times when you feel that you could be ahead that you should fold in cash games. For example against an opponent running a 14/8 with 3.5 postflop aggression in full ring 400NL if you check from the BB in a limped pot with 4 opponents in the hand and the flop is 9sTsJs and you have J2, if you bet and get raised you should very likely fold or it may be better to just check fold. Playing in a spot where you're unsure on a very dangerous board even if you may be slightly ahead doesnt make a lot of sense with a vulnerable hand.

herschelw · Aug 12,2008, 09:04 PM

Fundamentally the biggest difference is that in cash game play the stacks are almost always much deeper and you can rebuy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adpro

I started out playing ring games, then read Roy Rounders books on tournament play and all that. They seemed to help me a lot. Have you read these books? What do you think about them? EDIT: After reading these books I switched to playing tournament games. I wasn't all that successfully in ring games, but I was just learning.

Basically for tournaments (8-10 man) he pretty much says to be super tight pre-flop and when you hit a big hand, be super aggressive (like all-in aggressive when you know people will call you). Then near the end of the tournament loosen up a bit and start stealing some blinds when they players get tighter (usually when there are 5 or less). At this time the blinds are quite a bit bigger, so stealing them ends up raising your stack quite a bit.

I have been playing like this and I have been winning most of the tournaments I go in. I am playing for very small stakes at stars at the moment in order to learn, cause I literally just started playing poker. But, I seem to be pretty successful and can't wait to increase my bankroll to get to those higher stakes games.

From a beginner standpoint, and a side-note, I personally think, from my experiences anyway, the biggest mistake must be people playing in stakes that are too large for their bankroll.

Here is my question though, since I am curious.

What do you think the reason for the difference between play in ring games and tournaments? Is it the way players play? Is it because you are going to get way more callers in a tournament? Is it because tournament players are way looser than ring game players? Or, is it because people play more hands in tournaments?

Thanks for the advice though. We really appreciate it!

herschelw · Aug 12,2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schabs

If anyone has the chance to rail AJK hoosier on PokerStars, please do. I have a number of times and played against him, plays some real solid poker.

He's definitly excellent and that is why he's the #1 ranked online player right now. Keep an eye out for USCphildo. 9 months ago he was unranked and is now ranked #7. He just had a $62k score and an $83k score in back to back days this week.

AcidJoe · Sep 15,2008, 07:29 PM

When I first read Grahams post my first reaction is chasing too much ( I guess that means not folding often enough). I see guys chasing every straight, flush, overcards and not recognizing that even if they hit they may not win.

The other big mistake is guys not reading the board. Not recognizing that the 2nd pair they hit now put 3 spades on the board and there is a potential flush out there.

Finally the BIGGEST mistake we are all making on the forum is not taking Kristy's word as the GOSPEL. She's right we are wrong we need to get over it

... LOL

And finally most people play over what their bankroll can handle and end up broke even if they are a decent enough player. Variance is a bitch, get used to it.