CdnVet0506

Hi. I've been playing on-line now for about 6 months and am generally a decent beginner tournie/SNG player with a slowly climbing bankroll. I generally start TAG and loosen up my starting hands as the numbers dwindle. In tournies I usually bubble or just make it into the money (low buy-ins at moment). To me it is obvious that I am searching for the next weapon in my arsenal. I steal blinds when I can, and make stabs at pots when people check (and I haven't hit). I try to take advantage of position, however when early positions raise 3x BB and I have squat........
Not certain if its playing too conservative, or not reckless enough, or not re-raising to steal.....
It seems it is always the same people who finish high on the leaderboard every week... I'm certain its not all luck..... They have obviously taken their game to next level and I'm looking for advice to bring my game to next level..... I feel I'm on the verge but just can't find it.....
Thanks for any advice....

Graham

Great question... I am sure the PokerPwnage guys will be great at answering this. Also, you should try posting some of the hands that are getting you eliminated from the tournaments in the Analyze My Hand section. This may help find some of the leaks causing you to go out early all the time.

herschelw

What buyins are you playing? We're generally going to need to know that to answer your question.

CdnVet0506

Generally the buy-ins I play at right now, while my BR is small, are in the $1-4 range. I know that in those buy-ins "playing properly" can put you behind the eight-ball early when there are the inevitable "all-in" luck crowd that build a quick stack lead......... However playing TAG early then loosing up gradually as the numbers go down normally gets me in the final stretch to the bubble.......

herschelw

In the buyins you're playing the tactics used by the top finishers(which includes many of our pros at pokerpwnage.com) that you see on the leaderboards will not work well for you to accumulate chips. What I suggest for you it to play a generally tight aggressive game throughout the tournament but to generally loosen up your hand selection based on postion. Also, make sure you're limping suited connectors when there are limpers in front of you. The limpfests that go on early in those tournaments lay you huge odds to play your drawing hands in position. Additionally make sure that when you flop draws you're playing them very aggressively and also be mindful of the general style of play going on at your table. If the table is super tight then run it over by playing lots of hands very aggressively. If the table is super loose and won't fold anything the just play good hands and play them very straightforward. One of the biggest mistakes I see made at the levels you play is that players try to trap. The people you are playing are so bad that trapping just isn't the best way to play big hands. For example when you flop a set in the early levels are you betting the flop nearly every time? You should be.

compuease

I think this is very good advice and something I am going to try and follow a lot more. I'm too guilty of this practice....

adpro

I am playing at the same stakes at the moment and almost always place either 1st or 3rd. I read a book by Roy Rounder (read it if you haven't, I personally got a lot of good advice from it) about playing tournament poker.

Anyway, here is how I play, and it's kind of based on the table and how tight it is.

First of all, the players are loose at these tables to begin with. The players you are talking about that get the chip leads early from the 'lucky' all-in calls and bets are simply as you say, lucky. The chances of them making it in the money is low, so let them kill eachother off and try to double up when you can. You seem to be doing this early already, so keep it up.

I had the same problem as you though. Not being able to figure out how to play when you are in the money is frustrating. I can't give you a specific way to play. You just have to feel each table out.

So, when you are early in these tournaments, play only good hands. Play your really good starting hands aggressively (raise pre-flop to get as many people out of the hand as you can) and if you hit, go all-in. So, raise with AA-KK-QQ-JJ, or maybe even AK suited. I find that a lot of players have a hard time throwing this hand away, though. Be careful with AK hands, especially if they aren't suited. From there, limp in with suited connectors or lower pairs.

Anyway, when the blinds go up and there are still some loose players left, only play the really big hands. Don't play low pairs or suited connectors. Raise a lot with good hands in hopes to get only one caller.

Then, when everyone is fighting for a money spot, I like to give the image that I am a loose player. I usually have a decent chip stack at this point, not because I play a lot of hands, but because I play good hands and get callers on them. Even if I don't lead in the chip department, I make sure everyone has to pay to see the flop when I have a good hand. If players with not many chips are my only competitors, I like to lean on them and raise their blinds. They usually fold in hopes to catch a better hand, but they seem to play crappy starting hands in hopes to hit. At this point if I see a flop and I hit, I usually try to push players that are low in chips all-in.

Anyway, I play smart at this time and this is the time that I am paying the most attention to the way players are playing. People change their playing styles at this point in time, and it's always different depending on chip stack sizes. If everyone is equal, I find it best to kind of wait it out, but steal some blinds when you have decent hands. Don't get too crazy, cause you will just end up losing your money. People like to slow play hands at this time in these stakes. Make sure you keep that in the back of your mind when trying to steal some blinds.

When it's down to 3 players, I play quite a bit looser (I play and sometimes raise suited connecters and raise any pair). I'll fold to almost any raise if I haven't hit and I have less than 8 outs. Also, that depends on the raise. If I'm on a nut flush draw post-flop, I'll play it like I have the nuts! If I have the A-x suited, and there are two of that suit on the flop and/or on the turn, I will raise like I have 3 aces. Sometimes I will try to push all-in. The reason being, if I do hit and he goes all in, I have him and I become chip leader for sure. If I miss and he calls, I might loose, but at least I am 3rd. I find it better to be 1st or 3rd. Play aggressive when only 3 people are left and make sure you either have a huge lead going into heads up or lose to be 3rd. I mean, for a 9 man table at stars, it's 4.50 for first, then 2.70 for second if i'm not mistaken, and 1.80 for 3rd. I think this is right. Either way, 1st is a lot more than 2nd or 3rd, so I like to aim for first. I seem to get 1st more often if I lean on the player with the fewest chips when there are 3 of us left and force him to make decisions for all of his chips. I also steal a lot of his blinds. Again, the blinds will be high at this time, so it will benefit a lot to steal them.

Overall I have noticed that it's not good to flat out bluff people in these games. I never pull a flat out bluff. I always have quite a few outs if I bluff where I can force someone all-in if I hit. To be honest, I usually only bluff if I have suited connectors and end up on a flush AND straight draw after the flop. If I've got A-x suited, I'll bluff if I have 2 of that suit on the board. I'm more aggressive with a bluff than I am if I hit though.

But yeah, the hardest part of these games is to get into that top 3. It's different at every table in these stakes because of the difference in play from the players. Sometimes you seem to get a table full of loose-aggressive players that play this way right until the end. It's frustrating to see someone like this, especially because you come up with a strategy and it doesn't factor in this type of play. All you have to do is stay tight against these players and you will eventually double up on them. They will try to bluff you when you hit a monster hand. Just play the huge hands against them.

Anyway, those are my experiences and the way I play. I'm currently increasing my bankroll and just moved up to the $3 9 man tables. I came 3rd in the first and only one I played and hope to be successful at this level. People seem to play a bit tighter at this level, but always remember that a lot of these players push all in with A-x suited, and soemtimes non-suited. So, if an A hits on the flop and you have KK, and there are 2 or more people, FOLD!!! If you don't hit a king and an A hits the board, chances are you are going to get a 'bad beat' and lose a lot of chips. That's the biggest mistake I see when playing against these loose players.

I hope this helps. I am very new to poker and so far I love it!! I have only been playing for a few months and can't get enough of it. At work all I do is read about how to play then go home and apply what I have learned. So, from my experience and 'fast' learning, the best thing to do is read as much as you can about playing and apply it to your play. Be patient at the tables and pay attention to what is going on. If you get bored, read some stuff about poker at your desk, and be comfortable. However, when you are playing, don't be interactive with your learning. For example, don't post on here while playing. You will get too distracted. Patience is the key!!! Most people lose in tournament play online simply because they play too many hands. Your first goal is to make it in the money, then after that make it to first! That's why I end up first or third. Acutally, this is what Roy Rounder said is the best way to think of it. First or 3rd, not second.

So, now that all the pros see my advice, do any of you have advice for me? Again, these are my experiences and I am very new to this, so I am still learning and have a load of stuff to learn. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks.



EDIT!!!

I also wanted to add that all of this is based on positioning. Especially when late in the game, positioning is the most important thing. Throwing out a raise post-flop when on the button and getting callers tells you a lot about the hands others may have when there are only a few of your left. Especially if it's a decent raise. Expect these players to be on a huge draw or a big hand already. Like I said, people seem to like to slow-play a lot at these stakes and when there aren't many people left. Try to slow play your big hands too though. It seems to help a lot. For example, if I get dealt KK and a K hits on the flop, I will wait for a bit then check. People seem to figure I was debating a bluff and assume I have a small pair, especially because I likely put a small raise pre-flop. I never limp in with KK. I want to get as many people out of the hand as I can pre-flop with KK. Especially those A-x players that want to limp in to see an ace on the flop. Those are your most dangerous enemies when you have KK. So, put a good raise to get them out.

Anyway, when there are 3 people left, I'll raise and hopefully get only one caller. If I hit nothing on the flop, I will raise. Even if I am early in position, I'll raise. Even if an A hits, I want to see if someone else has one too, so I raise. That's the best tell in online poker in my opinion. So, raise and see who calls. If they call and there is an A on the flop, you can bet they have an A too and they will call all the way to the river. This also gives you a free river card most of the time in hopes to hit a K.

Back on track though! If I do hit a K on the flop, i'll play it slow and hope an A comes up. I'll check to look weak. Hopefully the player will hit something on the flop or the turn and raise me. That's when I throw in a small re-raise to try to act like I am bluffing him. If he takes the bait, he is usually extremely pot committed at this time. Put in one more raise if you can and then put him all in. In other words, I'll slow play the hand in hopes of a raise, then slowly raise him to all-in. Try to squeeze as many chips out of him as you can. That's what makes the difference in these tournaments. A lot of the time it's how you play your hands. Give yourself the best chances of winning and try to milk as many chips as you can out of other people. Your goal is to almost always end up seeing the river with only one player and you having the best hand. The more players seeing the river, the more chance you have to get a 'bad beat'.

Try to think about how people read you and apply that to your game as well. Look at betting patterns and try to make people think you are playing a different way than you actually are. Use the chat feature to try to throw your player off, but DO NOT BE AN A$$HOLE WITH THE CHAT FEATURE, EVER!!! If you bluff someone and decide to show your cards, throw a little 'lol' to them on the chat feature. They will think you think you are cocky and they will think you don't know how to play, so they will call you on your poket aces all-in pre-flop raise. I personally think the ability to show your cards sometimes is one of the best features of the tables. Don't muck every single one of your hands. Let players think you are a fish when you aren't. Show them some of your semi-bluffs when they fold and hope they hit something, but folded thinking you had the nuts. Again, only do this stuff late in the tournament after the real fish are gone.

I think i posted a lot, so hopefully people give me a lot of advice!!!

Thanks again.

CdnVet0506

Thanks for info all. Generally SNG's are not my issue, as they are the reason my BR is slowly climbing (when I place its normally 1st or 3rd). Overall, the low buy-in SNG's are not too difficult (of course you have to deal with the inevitable calling station suckout). MTT are the ones I am currently trying to crack..... Generally I play them the way herschelw suggests..... hopefully it is only a matter of time, and a few timely suckouts of my own:-).... Looking forward to the day I can move up in buy-ins to play better players and hopefully take game to new levels....

compuease

Welcome, both of you to Pokerforum. Well thought out and written early posts. Hopefully we can get many more new posters with these new sections that Graham has added. I can't add too much to your thoughts as you seem to be going through the same process as many of us did as we moved up in levels. I found that up to about the $5. SNG level the same type of play as you are describing works well, however once you get to $10. and above levels it seems to change. I think that quite a few players at these higher levels are using things like pokertracker, etc to keep track of your tendencies so the play gets tougher and you have to start mixing up your play somewhat. Things like raising suited connectors in late position, trapping, floating, etc come into play so that if you don't add to your arsenal of tricks you will be left behind... Great thoughts though and keep posting. Good luck in your progress.

And Adpro, that is some post, you obviously put a lot of time and effort into it. I wish more of us would put more thought and content into our posts.....

adpro

I think these forums should turn some of these abbreviations and stuff into some links so us newbies can understand exactly what they all mean, lol.

MTT is multi-table tournaments?

Well, I play some of those too. I generally start the 360 man 0.10 game at the same time as my first 9 man sit and go tournament. I play tight-aggressive through the entire thing until the final table. I usually place somewhere in the 20's, so I make my money back, but I only place within the bigger money if I get some lucky cards and multiple calls on my all-in raises.

I would like some advice on these tables though. I seem to get blinded out on these ones if I play very tight and aggressively bet. I tried to mix up my play and raise pre-flop with almost any pair, but I always seem to lose too many chips when doing this. So, yeah, that's a good thing to focus on. I guess my goal has always been to make it to the final table, then play depending on my chip stack and the general playing style.

In your experiences with final tables with, lets say a 45 man tournament, are there still loose players? Like are there some fish at the final table still, or does it end up with a bunch of decent and maybe tight players? Are there more bluffs, or can you bluff more? I'm going to play a 45 man game tonight and see how it goes.

compuease

Yep, MTT is multi table tournaments... As for poker abbreviations, its already been done in a number of places. Here is a good one from 2+2..

Untitled Document

adpro

That's a good document! Thanks.

I've noticed that there are A LOT of abbreviations in the poker world. I have a few sites bookmarked in order to keep up on them, and that one is a new one, so thank you very much. I'm also creating an abbreviation page on my own poker site, just so I can learn as many of them as I can.

Thanks for the link.

CdnVet0506

adpro... generally I have to agree with your comment about bluffing rarely working at low buy-ins... The only times I get away with it are after everyone checks (4 or less players in pot) or when there are 2 of us in the pot and I take a stab at it first (if I get resistance I slow down/check/fold. If he just calls and I don't hit turn.... its a crapshoot/feel thing)

adpro

Yeah, when going up against only one other person I always raise pre-flop every hand at least one small raise, unless I have 2-7os. Although, one time someone raised, I had 2-7 off suit, and I called cause I was largely ahead in chips and the flop ended up 7 7 2. He pushed me all in. That was quite the crazy hand!

Post flop, I kind of base it on what playing style the other player has. I take a lot of stabs at pots and take a lot of them before the turn and river. Then, once the other player sees what I am doing, I slowly tighten up a bit. It seems to work as he gets a bit looser in his playing. Eventually, if the game goes long enough, he goes all in with a crappy hand like A-6 off suit and I take all of his chips with my pair of jacks. That's what happened in the last tournament I played in.

So, yeah, I agree. As you get down to less players (3 or more), bluffing can happen and taking stabs at pots will benefit. I still keep to the large raises when I'm holding a draw though. Larger than if I actually hit something. I sometimes play my big hits the same, at the beginning, as if I were to play a nothing hand, if he doesn't raise. Then I mix it up.

Either way, it all depends on the player or the situation. I like to be the better rather than caller in heads up. It seems to be more profitable.

CdnVet0506

Just an example of the frustrations I face daily in the low buy-in MTT!!! Down to less that 50 pers out of 360 (36 pay). I have slightly less than average pot, playing TAG with the occasional steal. I'm on the button with As Js. Few limpers. All fold except guy to my right (average stack). Flop come AJ3. He bets I raise big. He calls. Turn a 7. Again he bets I raise hugh. He calls. River Q. He bets, I raise he calls. Yep, he has K10 offsuit. My stack devastated...... Calling stations like this (no matter how aggressive you are) suck out on me often in the low buy-ins.... And I'm certain if I had gone all-in on flop he would have called (had history in last few hands.....)
Back to the MTTs......