My first thought was that he can't be that *solid* if he's the first to call preflop with just k-j..and then neglects to protect his hand on a fairly vulnerable flop against so many other hands.
Given that k-j is in his range..I don't think including qc-10c or ac-10c is unreasonable..maybe even k-qc, or qx-10x (reasonable for chrAbTor at least) and for that reason I don't hate betting the turn. I just wonder if either of your bets should have been a little bit more?
Flop was a min. raise and turn was less than the total flop bet-not crazy about that unless you're prepared to call a turn shove..if not, check/fold. Or maybe invest a portion of your turn bet on the flop instead- making a 3x raise..when he flat calls you get away for $5 less?
Just learning cash..but that's my thinking out loud.
If he bets actually. I am saying check/fold the turn or the river.
I donked off nearly 100BB in total with TPTK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
My first thought was that he can't be that *solid* if he's the first to call preflop with just k-j
Given that k-j is in his range.....
He is in the Hi-Jack position. Two off the button. KJ would be in almost everyone's range here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
I don't think including qc-10c or ac-10c is unreasonable..maybe even k-qc, or qx-10x (reasonable for chrAbTor at least) and for that reason I don't hate betting the turn. I just wonder if either of your bets should have been a little bit more?
My min raise as you put it is a Pot sized bet. Are you suggesting I over bet the pot here? Remember chrAbTor is OOP but optionone is behind me in the Hi-Jack. optionone needs to call $10.50 in a $21.00 pot, exactly 2-1, now he may be assuming a call by chrAbTor and the improved odds of that situation which would give him 2.5-1 and he is still not getting the right price to draw unless he has a combo draw and is holding either AQcc or Q10cc. But then he should shove anyway!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
Flop was a min. raise and turn was less than the total flop bet-not crazy about that unless you're prepared to call a turn shove..if not, check/fold. Or maybe invest a portion of your turn bet on the flop instead- making a 3x raise..when he flat calls you get away for $5 less?
Turn bets should be smaller as a rule Kristy. If he is on the draw he is not getting the right price and if his hand is made I have been able to figure it out with out potting it for 100BB.
__________________
Stupid is as Stupid does - Forrest Gump
Kindly note that I said "learning" not "outright mentally impaired"
Your flop raise was not pot, it was less than half the current pot which included the bet ahead of you and your call. Do not forget that chrAbTor may very well have been betting a drawing hand since he is oop and your over-sized preflop bet made representing a pair of kings a decent option, with a solid plan B. You've just let him see the turn for a reasonable price with your 'min. raise with loads behind' that accomplished precisely nothing in the way of gathering the information you obv need. You are focusing solely on optionone because you know now that he WON..but the size of the bet was still a mistake.
I don't think that k-j is in 'almost everyone's range' It is a pretty weak holding to be the first to call a raise with. I'd like to see at least one more caller in ahead before I'd do that and with k-js only..and to be honest I'd rather have non-face s/c
Nobody suggested potting it on the turn, I believe the gist of what I said was to bet a little more- if you are going to bet at all..the new smaller turn bet said to me that you were not confident. I would shove any decent draw were I your opponent. Hence my earlier suggestion that you'd better have been prepared to call an all in when you made that bet.
Honestly, why are you posting these if the only feedback you want is "Damn you played that sooo well, and the tweaks you decided before posting are ingenious... Caddy 4 life!"?
Last edited by Kristy_Sea; Jun 26,2007 at 09:34 PM.
Let me qualify that you almost need to be a Mississippi Lawyer to read this hand history. It sucks I know it and have said so previously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
...your over-sized preflop bet made representing a pair of kings a decent option
Standard raise in a cash game at 4XBB + 1BB per limper. So any time I raise I am representing KK? Why not AA or AK? Maybe I am declaring that Hearts are trump?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
Honestly, why are you posting these if the only feedback you want is "Damn you played that sooo well, and the tweaks you decided before posting are ingenious... Caddy 4 life!"?
LOL. I posted this hand because I felt I played it poorly. Have you actually read this thread?
__________________
Stupid is as Stupid does - Forrest Gump
Once again I apologize in advance for this hand history.
OK so TPTK is the nuts at this table.
The big stack is a solid player. We haven't really tangled over a long stretch of hands an we are pretty deep here obv.
I think I put too much money in this pot but is it that wrong to fire 2 barrels here?
P.S. with the check behind on the river his hand should be obv. Any guesses?
This is the type of hand that I'm trying to work on my game on.
Preflop I would make a note to raise more than 5 BB.
Try something like 7 or even 11 or more BB.
AA, KK, QQ, AKo, AQo play well against *one* and only one player.
Here you have 3 callers.
Disaster.
Flop: Texture is pretty wet, 2 high cards..
I have two conflicting ideas. (keep the pot small, get rid of players)
On the one hand I *hate* the min flop raise. The bettor is getting at least 4 to 1 odds to call... and too many people see the turn. Not good. It makes me think you should raise more.... But the short stack will probably call anyways.. bloating up the pot for the next player to call.. Now the original better can get odds to call further bloating the pot. I kind of like Kristy's line of betting more, say $17 and trying to get heads up with the original bettor?
If anyone flat calls you big raise you can consider check folding the turn.
It makes the hand easier to play, but costs you $7 more on the flop.
This conflicts with my other idea.
On the other hand I want to keep the pot size small with the top pair type hand (AKo frequently gives top pair top kicker hands that are good for winning a small pot)
Now you have a big pot and lots of players. *Exactly* what you don't want with a TPTK kind of hand -- negative implied odds here I come.
Turn:
Since you didn't define your hand strongly on the flop, It's harder to play on the turn.
If it sounds like I'm a bit conflicted on this hand at this point ... I am. :-)
__________________
Not smarter than a grade 5 or Kristy Sea
I don't want to stifle conversation with you on this Board because I think you have more to contribute than a lot of posters. In reading this over we are obv. coming from very different directions in approaching this hand and maybe I am taking alot of my thought process for granted.
My main concern on this hand is optionone for three reasons, the first of which I mentioned in my OP. He is a solid thinking player I know this beacuse we have played over 1000 hands together. He also has position on me and we are over 200BB deep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
Your flop raise was not pot, it was less than half the current pot which included the bet ahead of you and your call..... You've just let him see the turn for a reasonable price with your 'min. raise with loads behind' that accomplished precisely nothing in the way of gathering the information you obv need.
I was presenting optionone with a pot sized bet. That was my intention. I was not overly concerned with the other player because he had not shown me any solid play to date and because his limp/call pre-flop told me a few things:
He was not huge because he would obviously 3-bet as the last to act with four going to the flop. He likely has small to medium pair or some variation of Ax.
His donk-bet on the flop didn't make a whole lot of sense to me so my raise gives him an opportunity push over the top which should tell me he has a set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
I don't think that k-j is in 'almost everyone's range' It is a pretty weak holding to be the first to call a raise with. I'd like to see at least one more caller in ahead before I'd do that and with k-js only..and to be honest I'd rather have non-face s/c
I understand this and you are right but this does not mean that everyone at 25NL thinks this way. Believe me they don't!
The turn was obviously a stupid bet for me to make. Without a doubt it was pure spewage. At the time I was thinking that it pressured the rest of ChrAbTor's stack as well as it might be enough to push optionone off of a draw. It was a sticky spot and I know that the play I made stunk. Unfortunately I still haven't figured out the best play in this situation. Paging SirWatts.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristy_Sea
Honestly, why are you posting these if the only feedback you want is "Damn you played that sooo well, and the tweaks you decided before posting are ingenious... Caddy 4 life!"?
I am never personal in my responses. I may attack the opinion but not the poster. I have never been personal with you and I don't think you have agreed with me in a single thread on this board.
__________________
Stupid is as Stupid does - Forrest Gump
I want to word this response well, as your post above certainly is. I think your problem is probably one that we are all guilty of..ego. You're a clever guy with decent insights..but you don't appear to listen much. Admittedly this may be pot and kettle..but we're both still black. You've received some decent advice in your HH's but you always seem to come to these posts knowing what you want to hear and paying attention to only that which furthers your individual thinking. I apologize for not saying that more respectfully earlier , your tone- which I perceived to be very patronizing, had my scruff up.
(I just woke up and am not ambitious enough to search yet..but don't you and I have a glorious tradition of personal attacks? )
Who the eff is Overlord? Besides someone with a grip on Google I suppose? Seriously though if we dated..I really meant to call and its not me its you..and your tiny non-kitchener mouse nuts. (bring on the flame war, for real! I've got a lot of coffee to drink before I do anything productive.)
Last edited by Kristy_Sea; Jun 29,2007 at 04:42 PM.
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You've received some decent advice in your HH's but you always seem to come to these posts knowing what you want to hear and paying attention to only that which furthers your individual thinking. I apologize for not saying that more respectfully earlier , your tone- which I perceived to be very patronizing, had my scruff up.
